About The Japanese Writing System.

[steven]

It's my opinion that spending time learning the stroke orders of kanji and kana and all that is a bit of a waste of time. It'd be worthwhile to understand the general rules, like how you usually start on the left and work your way right (same thing with up to down)... other than that is, in my opinion, overkill. As you have bigger fish to fry when learning the language.

Incidentally, Japanese people put stroke orders on arabic numbers and the alphabet as well. Did you know that? I'm sure there is some kind of "stroke order" for the alphabet, so to speak, but it's not like anyone really cares. That's not to mention that the Japanese stroke order of the alphabet seems to be unintuitive (of course that's my opinion). As far as arabic numerals go, try writing a "7" in Japan the way it is here. They won't accept it on any documents or forms that you have to fill out. Sometimes they will mistake it for a "1", so they want you to write it like this: " '7 " (I'm not sure if you can read that, but hopefully if you can you get what I'm saying).

Ironically, I've heard Japanese students who are learning English stressing over the stroke orders of their alphabet, as if it mattered... oh wait, it does because some teachers might brign it up! Sorry for this little aside, but the moral of what I'm saying is that you should apply as little of your native languages rules and characteristics as is mentally possible to the second language that you are trying to acquire.

MMM, I agree that part of the purpose of writing kana / kanji over and over is to increase recognition as much as it would be to learn "how" to write them.

As far as shortcuts in Kanji learning, it is my opinion (which is contested quite a bit apparently) that knowing the words to which the kanji are applied to helps to remember kanji. There are, of course, many kanji that are used for words that would normally not be used in everyday conversation (like technical terms and the like) which would be unrealistic to assume you'd know before you started studying them. I would argue that you shouldn't be learning those words before getting the basics down, though.

Finally, I want to say that when practicing kana, it might be a good idea to actually say them outloud. That will help you connect the sounds to the symbols. Don't just use some online pronunciation guide, try to find some material that you can actually listen to. Also, if you have the means and are really serious about it, try recording yourself saying all the kana and compare it to whatever material you've been studying from. Sometimes you will find that your pronunciation is different from what you expected when you go to listen back to your recordings! It's very similar to practicing an instrument-- your voice and throat muscles are after all an instrument, so why not practice accordingly?

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by steven

It's my opinion that spending time learning the stroke orders of kanji and kana and all that is a bit of a waste of time. It'd be worthwhile to understand the general rules, like how you usually start on the left and work your way right (same thing with up to down)... other than that is, in my opinion, overkill. As you have bigger fish to fry when learning the language.

Incidentally, Japanese people put stroke orders on arabic numbers and the alphabet as well. Did you know that? I'm sure there is some kind of "stroke order" for the alphabet, so to speak, but it's not like anyone really cares. That's not to mention that the Japanese stroke order of the alphabet seems to be unintuitive (of course that's my opinion). As far as arabic numerals go, try writing a "7" in Japan the way it is here. They won't accept it on any documents or forms that you have to fill out. Sometimes they will mistake it for a "1", so they want you to write it like this: " '7 " (I'm not sure if you can read that, but hopefully if you can you get what I'm saying).

Ironically, I've heard Japanese students who are learning English stressing over the stroke orders of their alphabet, as if it mattered... oh wait, it does because some teachers might brign it up! Sorry for this little aside, but the moral of what I'm saying is that you should apply as little of your native languages rules and characteristics as is mentally possible to the second language that you are trying to acquire.

MMM, I agree that part of the purpose of writing kana / kanji over and over is to increase recognition as much as it would be to learn "how" to write them.

As far as shortcuts in Kanji learning, it is my opinion (which is contested quite a bit apparently) that knowing the words to which the kanji are applied to helps to remember kanji. There are, of course, many kanji that are used for words that would normally not be used in everyday conversation (like technical terms and the like) which would be unrealistic to assume you'd know before you started studying them. I would argue that you shouldn't be learning those words before getting the basics down, though.

Finally, I want to say that when practicing kana, it might be a good idea to actually say them outloud. That will help you connect the sounds to the symbols. Don't just use some online pronunciation guide, try to find some material that you can actually listen to. Also, if you have the means and are really serious about it, try recording yourself saying all the kana and compare it to whatever material you've been studying from. Sometimes you will find that your pronunciation is different from what you expected when you go to listen back to your recordings! It's very similar to practicing an instrument-- your voice and throat muscles are after all an instrument, so why not practice accordingly?

To be fair, stroke order does matter in Japanese.

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

To be fair, stroke order does matter in Japanese.

Agreed 100%. The stroke order is of utmost importance. If you don't know it, you won't be able to read anything handwritten as almost no one writes in complete blocks. When we write several strokes in one, only your knowledge of the stroke order guides you to read it.

Likewise, knowing the stroke order in turn enables you to write a few strokes in one as well, which is a huge time-saver.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by steven

It's my opinion that spending time learning the stroke orders of kanji and kana and all that is a bit of a waste of time. It'd be worthwhile to understand the general rules, like how you usually start on the left and work your way right (same thing with up to down)... other than that is, in my opinion, overkill. As you have bigger fish to fry when learning the language.

Native speakers can "read" stroke order and I have looked at kanji that looked fine to me, but a native speaker could see the order was off (not from watching it being written, but from just looking at the written characters) and it was commented that it looked wrong. Its liek riting liek this. You can read it, but it is written wrong. We don't have stroke order in English, so it is hard to feel serious about it. It is serious.

Originally Posted by steven

Incidentally, Japanese people put stroke orders on arabic numbers and the alphabet as well. Did you know that? I'm sure there is some kind of "stroke order" for the alphabet, so to speak, but it's not like anyone really cares. That's not to mention that the Japanese stroke order of the alphabet seems to be unintuitive (of course that's my opinion). As far as arabic numerals go, try writing a "7" in Japan the way it is here. They won't accept it on any documents or forms that you have to fill out. Sometimes they will mistake it for a "1", so they want you to write it like this: " '7 " (I'm not sure if you can read that, but hopefully if you can you get what I'm saying).

I hadn't heard that before, but it may be why native Japanese tend to have such easy to read English and numerals.

Originally Posted by steven

Ironically, I've heard Japanese students who are learning English stressing over the stroke orders of their alphabet, as if it mattered... oh wait, it does because some teachers might brign it up! Sorry for this little aside, but the moral of what I'm saying is that you should apply as little of your native languages rules and characteristics as is mentally possible to the second language that you are trying to acquire.

I totally agree. We don't have stroke order in English, so to apply that rule to Japanese makes little sense. Stroke order is important in Japanese. To add stroke order in English is just as silly as to take it away in Japanese.

Originally Posted by steven

MMM, I agree that part of the purpose of writing kana / kanji over and over is to increase recognition as much as it would be to learn "how" to write them.

As far as shortcuts in Kanji learning, it is my opinion (which is contested quite a bit apparently) that knowing the words to which the kanji are applied to helps to remember kanji. There are, of course, many kanji that are used for words that would normally not be used in everyday conversation (like technical terms and the like) which would be unrealistic to assume you'd know before you started studying them. I would argue that you shouldn't be learning those words before getting the basics down, though.

I am not arguing that learning kanji in words is a bad idea, it is helpful IN UNISON with learning the proper way to write the kanji.

[steven]

I understand all that jazz about Japanese calling people out on their stroke order because I've had it happen to me all the time (I'll admit I suck at writing Japanese). I guess that my argument is that people tend to use computers these days, thus making stroke order a little less important for learners.

The fact of the matter is, if the kanji is legible then it will be accepted. There are certain situations like 北 , where if you wrote it like it is on the compture screen, it wouldn't really be recognizable. In most cases though, as long as you proportions and angles and all that are OK, then you will pass go. Case in point, I've turned in loads of official documents where I'm sure my stroke order was less than perfect on select kanji, but most of them were OK. I've never had something returned to me because my stroke order was bad. On the other hand, my wife (Japanese) who obviously has decent "natural" looking writing, got something returned because she didn't close the box on 西.

I'll admit it though... my argument does sound a little silly. If you're gonna study kanji and write them a million times, you might as well write your strokes in the correct order. There's no real harm in that-- it might take you a little while to get your hand muscles used to doing it, but that would probably go for the wrong stroke order as well.

"Likewise, knowing the stroke order in turn enables you to write a few strokes in one as well, which is a huge time-saver."

That's something that I'll agree with. Although there were time saving methods in writing kanji the wrong way, once you start to understand it you can start 'flowing' when you write. Even still though... when you get the stroke orders down you still have to worry about proportion and all that good stuff. There's no end to it.

If we're gonna compare it to English, I'd rather read really legible slightly mispelled childish block letters than some doctor's ridiculous wanna-be cursive. I've seen some Japanese writing like that where I have to ask multiple natives to figure out what it says (like when checking homework... sometimes I can't even read someone's name because it's so messy!)

No offense to Mr. Sashimister, but I feel like sometimes Japanese put a little bit too much focus on the nuances of writing. Like you'd have to be an idiot to not be able to read the 西 my wife wrote... but it still got turned down. Sometimes I get the feeling that some of this is entirely arbitrary too. I base that off of the fact that there seems to be this phantom stroke order for English and Arabic numerals. Not only that, but I've heard that Chinese kanji (some of which are identical and some of which are similar) have different stroke orders than Japanese kanji. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to justify crappy hand writing, but i'm just saying don't pull your hair out over it.

Do we agree that Toast should learn hiragana/katakana before kanji though? Something I'd like to point out is that learning the stroke order of hiragana/katakana is a very important step in learning the stroke order for kanji. It's funny because I don't recall ever being taught the stroke order for hiragana or katakana, but when kanji came along the teacher (who wasn't Japanese) tried to like teach us what he "remembered" to be correct, which in hindsight had some mistakes. Either way, the componants of kanji are basically comprised of hiragana and katakana. So if all you learn is hiragana and katakana and decide to study teh language for a while before hitting kanji, I'd suggest going back and reviewing the stroke order of hiragana and katakana before moving on. I took a huge break from studying Japanese (which is ironically when I learned the most). I had found some old 小１年生 practice books and started from the very beginning. It felt like a waste of time at first, but there were a few mistakes I found in my hiragana and katakana that consequently made my kanji look nicer.

[Toast]

Can I just ask one quick favour? I've been studying from this site "Nihongo o Narau - Writing a i u e o", could someone check if the stroke order they're teaching is correct?
Earlier today, I was watching an music video I liked. It's from an English artist, and there was a clip where you see some japanese writing. I noticed all the characters and could pronounce several of them. I was really proud of myself lol =3

NIHONGO RULES >_>!

[V1nn1]

I write all the kanji that I learn down. It makes it easier to memorize them.

[dogsbody70]

mm I enjoy writing the letters over and over-- how else can I improve?

the calligraphy itself is beautiful and rewarding--
if a thing is worth doing its worth doing well-- Isn't that true?

[Toast]

I guess. What do you guys write your kana with?
I mean, I usally use a pencil. What do you find easiest?

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Toast

I guess. What do you guys write your kana with?
I mean, I usally use a pencil. What do you find easiest?

Whatever you find easiest in your native language you will find easiest for Japanese. It's not like one language requires a fancy leather-bound gold-spewing utensil.