|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
12-28-2010, 12:02 AM
I absolutely couldn't agree more! You have no idea how grateful I am for the help he's given me so far (and I've noticed around the site how many others he helps). I feel bad though, that he's the only one chiming in here. He's going to get tired of me really quick.
 But yes, どうもありがとうございます, gracias, tusen takk, merci beaucoup, danke, спасибо...  I was almost through the chapter, but then they threw this at me: ミランがチャペックを揺り起こすと、彼は怖い夢を見た といいました。亡命する時、危険を目に遭ったのかとミ ランが尋ねると、彼は笑って、怖かったのは亡命の前... ...あの事件のあとの七年間だった、わたしは彼に代わっ て計画を進めたが、いい人材にはあたらなかった、だが 四十二を四十六にした時ほど頭をひねり、怖い目にあっ たことはなかった、まったくあの人のせいだ、といった そうです。 Nine clauses and an eliptical break - I've mulled this over for two days now and I know when I'm beaten.  This is the best I can do:Milan shook Chapek awake, and he told him he'd had a terrible dream. When Milan asked him if he had experienced something terrifying at the time of his defection, he laughed and said, "No, I'm afraid of the seven years before that..." He said "I carried forward the plan in his place, though regrettably I was not such a talented man, but I wracked my brains over (or puzzled over) the 42 and 46, it wasn't such a dreadful thing to experience, entirely because of that man. (or, that man was entirely to blame)." It seems like he should be saying it was dreadful, but doesn't なかった mean that it wasn't? I also don't know if いい人材 means what I thought. I feel like I'm not even close on that last He said sentence. Talk about wracking brains. Btw, I think I know what the 42 and 46 refer to, but I also think it's intended to be cryptic here. One more: 世間の話じゃあ, could this mean something like repeating history, or just as it happened in the past? "Then the history of the world" doesn't quite work as an introduction to what follows that clause.  
|
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
12-28-2010, 05:14 AM
Quote:
Important question: Is it a comma, rather than a period, that comes after あの事件のあとの七年間だった? If so, this is one monster of a sentence. Problems with your translation: Minor: "seven years before that" > "seven years before that after that incident" Major: "I was not such a talented man" > "I was unable to find a talented man" Major x 80. Emoticon needed: "it wasn't such a dreadful thing to experience" >>>>> "I've never had a more dreadful experience than (the 42/46 business) " The key word is ほど. 「～～ほどXXXない」 = never xxx as ~~ I naturally have no idea about the 42/46 bit. I'm thinking when they tried to lie about someone's age but I really shouldn't be speculating. 世間の話じゃあ menas "They say that ~~", "It's rumored that ~~"
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
12-28-2010, 07:23 AM
No, I'm afraid it's a comma. I've encountered several such "monster" (heh) sentences, and I've just broken them into two or three for flow, but at least I've been able (I think) to figure out the basic meaning. I'm still trying to get used to commas in places they wouldn't be in English, and especially the placements of ......, which I'm starting to think don't always mean the same to you as they do to me.
But even without the background, your corrections actually pulled that all together. You are totally awesome! Thank you!!! So is this right then: "I've been afraid for seven years, ever since that incident..."? That actually makes much more sense to me than when I was avoiding working in the part about the incident. I'm still a bit iffy about the nuances of 頭をひね. [spoilers for people reading Another Monster] The 42 and 46 refers to dead bodies found after "the incident," although I don't know yet why he mentions 42 (there were 40 men, 4 women and 2 children, so it seems he's pondering the 4 women for some reason). I'm wondering if there could be another meaning besides to puzzle over or think deeply about, such as being deeply affected, or can't get something out of your head. Also, could you explain please, how を functions in that position between the numbers? Thank you for that clear explanation of ほど here. I had as...as in my notes about it, but I think my brain was so fried by then that I just couldn't see how that construction could work there, so I thought it must mean "to the degree that" and gave なかった too much focus. Thank you!!  Try plugging that sentence into Google or Excite to see what I had to work with, and you'll understand why I'm so happy.  PS: I might be wrong about what 42 and 46 mean (so far 46 had only appeared in reference to the bodies, 42 not at all). They're mentioned again in the opening paragraph of the next chapter (I haven't really worked on it yet, so I don't have any idea what it says, but a quick skim makes me think it might refer to numbers given to designate specific individuals. If that's the case, then maybe he was mulling them over as possible candidates in his search for a talented man? Don't know if it will help you or make things worse, but here's the paragraph: ムスタファ氏が指摘した通り、わたしはへルマン・フュ アーという名前と四十六、四十二という謎の数字をすで に知っていた。それはヴァーデンマン弁護士からもらっ たグリマー氏のノート（正確にはノートのコピーだが） に走り書き程度に書かれていたものだった。
|
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
12-28-2010, 08:26 AM
Right, it needs to be a comma. Otherwise, the わたし immediately after it would refer to the narrator himself and the whole passage would become nonsensical.
 Unlike in English, the use of commas is in large part left to each writer's discretion.Yes, "I've been afraid for seven years, ever since that incident..." is accurate. Regarding the 頭をひねり, it's saying that the 42/46 incident lead him do two things at the highest level in his life. One is 頭をひねり (racked his brains) and the other 怖い目にあっ た (got treated to a painful experience). 四十二を四十六にした ＡをＢにする = to make A into B = to fabricate by changing A to B Literally, take A and pretend it's B. Finally, I already know how online translation doesn't work. I don't think it ever will between Japanese and English in our lifetime.
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
12-29-2010, 09:37 AM
Yes, but the hilarious babbling they sometimes spit out are what keeps me going.
 When Google once told me a sentence said "Questions, or ...... WTF dead in rented room ...... WTF why Asians with long hair..." I about fell off my chair laughing. Although it did use the acronym I wondered where it had learned such language! Quote:
Here's what I think the additional sentence says: "As Mr. Mustafa pointed out, when he said Hermann Feuer's name and the mysterious numbers 42 and 46, I had already known them." But don't know why there is a comma between 46 and 42, with no conjunction. Is he saying instead that he recognized Feuer's name and 46, but 42 was still a mystery to him? I couldn't locate enough verbs to sort it out that way, but then there's that comma that sets the 42 apart from the two things preceding it. At any rate, unless you see a reason that it can't be, I'm really leaning toward the idea that the numbers refer to individuals, and Chapek was seriously considering replacing 42 with 46 because he couldn't find another man of suitable talents. I think it won't be revealed what the numbers really mean until the end of this new chapter.
|
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
12-30-2010, 04:43 AM
As much as I would like to be of help, I would hate to give you half-assed answers based on too little context. I am going to look for a used copy of this book so I could hopefully be of more assistance. Meanwhile, I will ask another Japanese member if, by any chance, she is familiar with the manga if not with this novel version. Bookstores will be closed for several days starting around tomorrow so bear with me if it takes some time for me to find a used copy.
Regarding the comma in 「四十六、四十二」, pretend it's "and". This is all I can say for sure now.
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
12-30-2010, 06:41 AM
Oh, please don't go to that much trouble! I mean, it's a neat story and all, but if it wasn't originally something you'd be into, I hate to think of you spending your time reading it just for this.
Really, the sort of help you've been providing is more than I could have hoped for! And as I proceed with this, and learn more, I can go back to the rough spots and hopefully figure it out well enough to satisfy me, even if I can't come to a definite conclusion right now. I was just finding myself getting stuck and unable to get myself to move on at all. With your help getting over the stoppers, I've finished two chapters now, with only a couple of things still iffy. I am more than pleased!
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
01-04-2011, 05:14 AM
Quote:
That discrepancy in the body count is something I've been wondering about since the anime (I always thought it must be a mistake in the scripts that wasn't caught), so I'm delighted to have that finally cleared up after all these years. There is still a mystery here, and that is who killed the extra four people, who were not present during the massacre of the 42. And like the numbers, either that will be confirmed later, or never will be. I don't expect a definitive answer at this point, even with a perfect translation from Urasawa himself. I still am unsure though about Chapek's line, and since it is quoted verbatim in the chapter I just finished (lol, the second time he did break it into two sentences!), I'd like to give it one more go. The writer quotes Chapek's words about puzzling over the numbers and concludes from this that he is the one who did the dirty work of killing the extra people. That in turn makes me question "puzzling over" as the correct choice of translation. Does 頭をひねり have any other connotations besides serious pondering or working out a puzzle? Worrying? Agonizing? If Chapek killed these people, I don't see what's to puzzle over, unless he doesn't know why he was told to do it. But more to the point, if he is puzzling, how would that lead the journalist (who was puzzled about it himself) to suspect him of murder? Creating confusion was the reason for the murders, so expressing confusion ≠ being the murderer. I'm thinking instead that he either was deeply regretting killing them, or having some moral quandary at that time about how to come up with 4 extra bodies on behalf of "that man" without resorting to the murder of innocents. So, with that new context, here's my last attempt (at least until I finish this book...around this time next year). Please let me know whether you think it's any more (or any less) correct. "I carried forward the plan in his place, because there was no one else qualified, but at the time, I thought intensely about (agonized over/was troubled by) increasing the 42 to 46. I've never suffered through a more dreadful experience than that, and that man was entirely to blame." Here's how it appeared the second time: ..., うなされてミランにいった言葉——四十二を四十六にし た時ほど頭をひねり、怖い目にあったことはなかった。 まったくあの人のせいだ——こそ、謎の答えではないか 。チャペックは、ボナパルタの汚れ仕事をこなす殺人者 だったのではないだろうか。 "At the time, I pondered intensely about increasing the 42 to 46. I've never suffered through a more dreadful experience than that. That man was entirely to blame." -- doesn't that solve the puzzle? Isn't it likely that Chapek was the murderer doing Bonaparta's dirty work? I just know you're going to tell me that says it's unlikely that Chapek was the murderer. If that's the case, I'm just shelving this paragraph for the time being, until I come across something else that sheds more light on it. But this sort of thing is par for the course with Monster. Even with everything done by professional translators and spoken in English, I still have a million "but if...why this?" sorts of questions.
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
08-08-2011, 09:17 PM
Just wanted to say I finally finished up the project, and found it well worth doing.
 Thank you so much for helping me get over the discouraging roadblocks. I'd still be on Chapter 21 if you hadn't helped me out!
|
 |
| Thread Tools | |
|
|
