Contitional question

[chryuop]

I think I will never fully understand the differences amongst the different forms of conditional, which is very confusing.
This time I abandoned textbooks and read the definition in a Japanese dictionary. I found something that gave me to think. Before saying I understood...I want to hear from someone who knows about Japanese
(This is a very small part of it, the definitions are way much longer with different points).
ば
１）前に示す事態の成立が後に示す事態の実現のための 条件であることを示す。
順接の恒常条件：その条件のもとで常にある事柄が成立 する場合の条件を示す。
「春になれば雪が溶ける」
「あと彼さえ来れば、メンバーが揃う」
。。。
たら
３）未実現の事柄を仮定して、条件として示す。
「雨だったら中止にしよう」
「休んだら元気になった」

So if I well understood the difference there, is that in the subordinate (the one before ば・たら) is in the fact that when you have ば is a sure thing to happen, while with たら it is not a sure thing to happen, but more hypothetical. If I well understood it would be a mistake saying 春になったら雪が溶ける since it is a sure fact that spring will come. So in the second example of ば it is not an hypothetical thing "if he comes too", he is sure to arrive, it is just a matter of when.

In the same way it would be wrong to say 雨であれば中止しよう because we cannot be 100% sure that it is gonna rain. Unless maybe a weather forecast can be considered certainty and allows to use ば? And the second example with たら just says what would happen in case someone rests, but it not sure that person is actually gonna rest.

If I am right, then for a past action wouldn't make sense the ば because it is 100% hypothetical...it cannot be a sure thing since it already happened. For example やってみたら、簡単だった. It can't be sure the fact that it would have been easier had the person tried.
But this raises another question in my head...about the past.
勉強したら試験に受かる would this be "had you studied you would pass the exam" or "if you study you will pass the exam"

Sorry for the long question...but if I am right I got a big step towards understanding this part of grammar better.
お願いします

[halfthishalfthat]

日本語レッスン08 「と・ば・たら・なら」(1)

Perhaps you will find this useful.

I tried to read your post but honestly I got a little confused. It may be possible you are over thinking the issue.

As for difference between ば and たら, I feel it is a little more simple. They are nearly interchangeable, but not completely. They both illustrate conditional situations, but たら is more... multi-purpose(?). There is a slight difference in their emphasis but it's kind of depending on context.

If you use ば the part that comes after is restricted to fact/direct result that would happen if the first part is true.

If you use たら there is not this kind of restriction. The part following たら can be a request, opinion, command etc.

[Maxful]

A few simple example sentences for と, ば, たら, なら would be nice including English translations. よろしくおねがいします.

[halfthishalfthat]

と
春になると花が咲く When it becomes Spring, flowers bloom.
何も食べないと死ぬ If you don't eat anything, you will die.

たら
よかったら、うちに遊びに来ませんか？ If it'd be alright, wanna come hang out at my house?
夏休みになったら、友達とハワイに行くつもりです。 When summer break comes, I plan to go to Hawaii with friends.

ば
10に10をたせば、20になる。 If you add 10 to 10, you get 20.

なら
飲むなら、乗るな。 If you're going to drink, don't drive.
乗るなら、飲むな。 If you're going to drive, don't drink.

[Maxful]

Thanks alot, halfthishalfthat san.

[Ghap]

I cant speak Japanese and to be honest not even the best English, but the Op has all the hallmarks of an online translator.

i.e not very good.

it gives you the idea but the syntax sucks and confuses more than anything else.

[chryuop]

I got what off an online translator?
I clearly said I copied a monolingual Japanese dictionary entry. If you say you don't speak Japanese why on the heck it should confuse you anyway?

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Ghap

I cant speak Japanese and to be honest not even the best English, but the Op has all the hallmarks of an online translator.

i.e not very good.

it gives you the idea but the syntax sucks and confuses more than anything else.

Just leave. The Japanese was native-level (it came from a Japanese book), and the English was very near native-level. If I didn't know chryuop's status as a native Italian speaker, I almost would have assumed he was just a teenager posting in his native language and being a bit lazy with proofreading.

@chryuop: Your English is perfectly fine. On JF, I expect to encounter non-native English speakers. If I were on a site where I didn't have that expectation, I definitely would not have questioned your status as a native English speaker by your OP alone. There are a few flaws, but nothing I couldn't easily chalk up to "teenager" or "didn't proofread and forgot a word."

Of course, to be fair, this morning I'm having my own problems with constructing some complex counterfactual conditionals in English. I intentionally phrased some of the above post to avoid what I was instinctively going to write, because, after writing it, it started to look grammatically incorrect to me!