ほど question

[chryuop]

I have a couple of questions about ほど. I know ほど can have the meaning of "to the extend of" and thus used to form the English phrase "the~the~".
So for example (quote from a book...too lazy to make up an example):
上空に行くほど酸素が薄くなる
私は静かなほど落ち着かない

Now, all the example I have seen use a phrase like "the more...the more" no matter if the verb is positive or negative. The more I do this, the more I do that or the more I don't do that (like in the examples).
Using ほど can I build a phrase like the more I do this, the less I do that?
For example:
日本語は勉強するほど分からない　-> The more I study Japanese, the more I don't understand it
日本語は勉強するほど分かっている -> The more I study Japanese, the more I understand it
日本語は勉強するほど??? The more I study Japanese, the less I understand it

And another question. Is there a difference between the above example and the phrase: 日本語は勉強すればするほど分かっている?

お願いします。

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by chryuop

　
Now, all the example I have seen use a phrase like "the more...the more" no matter if the verb is positive or negative. The more I do this, the more I do that or the more I don't do that (like in the examples).
Using ほど can I build a phrase like the more I do this, the less I do that?

Yes, you can but it won't be in the same form as in English.

For example:
日本語は勉強するほど分からない　-> The more I study Japanese, the more I don't understand it
日本語は勉強するほど分かっている -> The more I study Japanese, the more I understand it
日本語は勉強するほど??? The more I study Japanese, the less I understand it

「日本語は勉強するほど分からない。」 is a correct sentence. A more natural-sounding sentence, however, would be 「日本語は勉強するほど分からなくなる。」.　

「なる」 is the key word here as you are talking about "changes".

「日本語は勉強するほど分かっている。」 does not make much sense. You cannot use いる here to talk about "changes". You can say　「日本語は勉強するほど分かるようになる。」.

「日本語は勉強するほど???」 is the tricky one. In Japanese, it would become the same as the first . 「日本語は勉強するほど分からなくなる。」

And another question. Is there a difference between the above example and the phrase: 日本語は勉強すればするほど分かっている?

As I stated above, you cannot say 「日本語は勉強すればするほど分かっている。」 and you have to say 「日本語は勉強するほど分かるようになる。」.

Not sure which one you are referring to with "the above example".

[chryuop]

Originally Posted by masaegu

Yes, you can but it won't be in the same form as in English.



「日本語は勉強するほど分からない。」 is a correct sentence. A more natural-sounding sentence, however, would be 「日本語は勉強するほど分からなくなる。」.　

「なる」 is the key word here as you are talking about "changes".

「日本語は勉強するほど分かっている。」 does not make much sense. You cannot use いる here to talk about "changes". You can say　「日本語は勉強するほど分かるようになる。」.

「日本語は勉強するほど???」 is the tricky one. In Japanese, it would become the same as the first . 「日本語は勉強するほど分からなくなる。」



As I stated above, you cannot say 「日本語は勉強すればするほど分かっている。」 and you have to say 「日本語は勉強するほど分かるようになる。」.

Not sure which one you are referring to with "the above example".

Thank you for the answer and I see now what you mean about changes and why 分かっている wouldn't work...I guess I had never thought it as a change in my language either hee hee.
What I meant about the difference is, the difference between the phrase with the conditional tense and the one without.

日本語は勉強するほど分かるようになる
日本語は勉強すればするほど分かるようになる

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by chryuop

Thank you for the answer and I see now what you mean about changes and why 分かっている wouldn't work...I guess I had never thought it as a change in my language either hee hee.
What I meant about the difference is, the difference between the phrase with the conditional tense and the one without.

日本語は勉強するほど分かるようになる
日本語は勉強すればするほど分かるようになる

The main difference is that the first sentence is less colloquial than the second. It is not such a big difference, though.

[SHAD0W]

So howcome its not なになににするほど・・・・　　？

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by SHAD0W

So howcome its not なになににするほど・・・・　　？

I beg your pardon?

[SHAD0W]

lol how come its
something は　Something　ほど　Yada yada
Instead of 　
Something に　Something　ほど　Yada yada?

Or is there an occasion where　に　Can be used?
Like... ロックに聞くほど・・・？

[masaegu]

Okay, I think you are talking about a different usage of ほど, which has the meaning of "(not) as ~~ as ~~", aren't you?

東京はヨークシャーほどおもしろくない！ = Tokyo is not as interesting as Yorkshire!

ヨークシャーほどおもしろいところはない！ = There is no place that is as much fun as Yorkshire!

Where did you learn that "Something に　Something　ほど　Yada yada" form? I cannot think of a phrase that fits this pattern.

You don't say ロックに聞くほど but you do ロックを聞くほど.

The better kanji would be 聴く there.
聞く = to listen
聴く = to listen and appreciate

ロックを聴けば聴くほどバカになる。　＝　ロックを聴 くほどバカになる。
You would not need my translation for that.

I am not even sure if I am answering your question.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by SHAD0W

lol how come its
something は　Something　ほど　Yada yada
Instead of 　
Something に　Something　ほど　Yada yada?

Or is there an occasion where　に　Can be used?
Like... ロックに聞くほど・・・？

1. In this case (the 日本語、勉強 sentence), it is originally 日本語を勉強, not に.

2. Regarding を->は It's sort of an emphasis or implication-type thing. It's not like it's wrong to say を instead, but it very slightly changes the feel of the sentence. I personally can't claim to fully feel the change. I don't know if the change is so extremely slight that you don't feel a change really, or if I just haven't become attuned to it. I do notice the change, but I am only academically aware of: "OK, this implies a slight bit of contrast and/or shift in meaning that を would not, but doesn't change the meaning of the sentence so much that I now no longer understand it."

3. With に, it usually will become には, not just は. を is the one that gets fully replaced. でー＞では、をー＞は、がー＞は、にー＞には、へー＞ へは.

Check these:
バナナが好きです。
バナナは好きです。
Both mean "I like bananas," but the latter has a slight feel of "I like bananas [, as opposed to apples or something like that]."

東京で野球しました。
東京では野球しました。
Both mean "I played baseball in Tokyo," but the latter has a slight feel of "I played baseball in Tokyo, [not in Kyoto/Osaka/Niigata/etc.]."

These explanations are only half-good, though. This is the type of thing that is immensely difficult for me to actually put in words, very much like how I would find it difficult to describe "blue" to a blind person.

Really, I recommend that you start with the understanding that the meaning changes very, very little. So much so that if you treat it as meaning the same thing as having no は, you will still have accurate translations. You might miss a little subtext, but you aren't at the level yet where that matters; this type of thing is good to be aware of, but thinking about it too much might be a distraction. Noticing it in reading, you'll gradually come to have a better feel for its usage and purpose.

At least, that's how this moderately talented Japanese speaker understands it.

[SHAD0W]

Sorry man, I need to explain myself better. Example.. erm..

ロックに聞くほど頭が痛い

Is に　The wrong particle in this case？　　Is there a more natural way to say this?