the problem with learning japanese

[chryuop]

Actually in Italy we tend to speak bad Italian ourselves when we speak to a foreigner. If their Italian is very bad we tend to lower to their level of errors because we think they understand better.

As a non native living abroad let me tell you that I appreciate if my wife corrects me (native speaker) when I make big errors. But had she corrected me every mistake I did, I would have stopped talking to her a long time ago. Sorry, but it gets old after a while.
I used to exchange email with penpals in Japan and we both corrected every single mistake in every email...the exchange didn't last long, because the emails were getting heavy and tiring.
Now they let my errors slip and I let theirs slip too, correcting only the major ones and communication is much more enjoyable. I agree that school is for perfecting grammar....

[WingsToDiscovery]

Yeah, I have a good friend who I just kind of help with her English. If she ever doesn't understand something (maybe a grammar point, new vocabulary, wording, etc.), she feels comfortable enough to ask me to help her out.

Normally when helping her, I treat the situation more formally, and then maybe give some more common alternatives. However, my teaching her actual English structure is really only limited to reading/writing comprehension. When we speak to each other, I'll surely help her out if she either says something wrong, mispronounces a word, or the like, but for the most part I don't nitpick on every time she makes a small mistake as long as the message she is trying to convey is accurate and effective. This would just discourage her. The point of our talking is to get her used to normal English conversation speed/flow.

[BobbyCooper]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

"PHENOMENON" IS SINGULAR; "PHENOMENA" IS PLURAL!!1!

Perfect Reply^^

[steven]

This is a cool topic. I'll try to share some of my feelings here.

On correcting/being corrected constantly:
There are particular ways of going about this. Sometimes you can ruin a conversation by being too blunt or by having bad timing. I think it's key to use what I think is referred to as something like the "mother & child" relationship. Basically you kind of repeat what they said but in the correct way. This, of course requires a certain level of ability on their part. As switching "you's" with "I's" would be important. Even still though, overdoing that can be a problem so unless explicitly asked to do so I think it's wise to pick and choose.

Relating to the "mother & child" relationship, the native speaker obviously has experience with this as their "mother" (or equivalent) did so for them. However, a person who is learning the language as their second+ language will probably make mistakes that do not resemble mistakes of a native learner. So a lot of the mistakes can be difficult to explain. For example, in English we say "go to bed, go to the mall, go to work, and go shopping". We know that "just because". When a person says "go to shopping" we have to explain to them why you need a "to". For someone who is really into their language's grammar, they'll be able to explain that immediately. For someone who doesn't think about grammar a lot it might not be obvious. Furthermore, it might be hard for the learner to grasp the concept as their language's equivalent phrase is clearly "go to shopping". Also there are dialects that can make this issue even harder-- I guess in England you guys say "go to hospital". In California everyone says "go to the hospital"... and taking away the "the" would be felt as incorrect. In other words, the learner may have had input from different dialects, which may or may not have different grammar from your own.

As for my personal experience, I've found that my version of "interlanguage" is great. You, as a learner of Japanese will try your best to use Japanese grammatical patterns and as many Japanese words as you know. You fill in the blanks with English. Your partner will do the opposite, in the same fashion. You can create that "mother & child" relationship I was talking about. It worked great for me and has worked well for other people. It requires willing participants who take it seriously. People listening in on your conversations will have NO idea what you are talking about, so it's a language that has very limited usage, but I believe it is the bridge from L1 to L2.

Referring to Japanese reluctance to interfere-- I know my wife doesn't like correcting my Japanese because she feels that what little mistakes/idiosyncrasies I have left are cute for whatever reason. We speak Japanese and pretty much only Japanese. This is to the extent that if I speak English in front of her or make a mistake in Japanese that is non-native like, she usually gets surprised because she suddenly remembers I am a foreigner!

At any rate, good luck in your learning.

[Sparda]

Originally Posted by Supperman

Hi.
I'm a native-Japanese speaker who has been studying English for over 30 years.
I can speak English as a second language to some extent, and I can communicate with non-native English speaking people to some extent.
Yet if you are a native-English speaker, you know that I'm not a native-English speaker, because my English sentences are different from natives' English.

I think there are several levels of a language. For example;
Level one; unable to communicate, always
Level two; able to communicate, sometimes,
Level three; able to communicate, 75%,
Level four; able to communicate more than 90%, though unnatural as a native tongue
Level five;able to communicate always, almost natural
Level six; able to communicate perfectly, and identical to native-speakers

As a learner, one should have the aim to what level he should go.
AND
As a teacher, one would think what level he should request the learner to obtain.
They doesn't match from time to time, which is the cause of your trouble, right?

It depends on the situations.

If I want to take a comfortable and cheerful time with a foreign people, the Level three might be enough. My aim is not to correct his grammar, or not to improve his Japanese, but have fun with him, talking with him. In such cases, if he speaks Japanese with the level three, I would say "nihongo ga o jyouzu desune!"

If you want to improve Japanese to the level six, you should say to us about it. Then we will help you. But being-strict might be very tough thing to both of us.

////////////////////////////
And now, suppose I would request you the proofreading of my English sentences here, what will you do?

If I say that I want to become the level six, then you have to correct most of my English, don't you?

Besides, if I say that I only want to become the level three, then you just correct a few sentences, and you would say that my English is good,
wouldn't you?

I don't think it is the nature of Japanese people, but common to all human beings.

Hello there dear, im really new here ive just signed in here and im desesperately looking for some alive kind japanese that could help me out with the language but for now id like to know how to write by Juanita (my name) in japanese because id like to start to use hiragana or so as signature aswell for my drawings in my DA site !

Could u help me out please >_<!? Its been almost a year that i cant find a single japanese at all over the net, really difficult! I have a crazy love for them >_< and i watch animes often thats why i believe id learn it quicker than the usual and anyway took me about 4 months to go to the supposed lvl 4 at english so i hope going to level 3 in japanese in 6 months at least so i can understand what the anime stories say, thats pretty much a good start for me >_<! but im confused bout kenji, hiragana etc >_<

could u tell me how i write by Jojos as signature in my artworks in hiragana or kenji Dx?? or both perhaps?

Please >_<

Cheers!

[Realism]

I don't understand why you need people to correct you.

With the technology available today you can correct yourself, you can easily google the sentence you want to say, the correct version of the sentence will appear and you will know how to say it.


For example if you google : "I go to the store yesterday", the result will probably show up as "I went to the store yesterday"....there you go, now you know how to say it correctly.

Same for Japanese.

If I want to know how to say something in Japanese, and I don't know how to say it. I will just google it up or go to random Japanese websites, 99% of the time I'll find what I want to say. I'll just mimic and copy.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Sparda

Hello there dear, im really new here ive just signed in here and im desesperately looking for some alive kind japanese that could help me out with the language but for now id like to know how to write by Juanita (my name) in japanese because id like to start to use hiragana or so as signature aswell for my drawings in my DA site !

Juanita = ホワニータ, assuming it is the Spanish name. I verified by checking how the name of a character (Juanita Solis) in a popular TV show is written in Japanese.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by Trifectionx

interesting points but dont get me wrong. this is not a completely limiting factor and i constantly hassle my friends already for my accuracy.

im just putting it out there that in certain situations ppl wont correct u because they think it cud b rude wen u r trying so hard and u dnt know u sed anything wrong.

its different wen ur wrong, u mimic other ppls patterns naturally but wen ur older u need to be conscience of wots wrong and wots right.

as i sed though, this is just one aspect to language acquisition

Your answer is right there dude. Instead of wanting to get people to correct you. Just open up your ears more like a little kid, and listen, listen, listen, and repeat. Eventually when you have heard the language enough, you will find yourself correcting yourself, because to a certain extent you have been able to internalize the language like a native would.

[Maxful]

I think the only way to be able to speak Japanese sooner is by living in Japan for at least a couple of years.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by Trifectionx

interesting points but dont get me wrong. this is not a completely limiting factor and i constantly hassle my friends already for my accuracy.

im just putting it out there that in certain situations ppl wont correct u because they think it cud b rude wen u r trying so hard and u dnt know u sed anything wrong.

its different wen ur wrong, u mimic other ppls patterns naturally but wen ur older u need to be conscience (CONSCIOUS)of wots wrong and wots right.

as i sed though, this is just one aspect to language acquisition

Writing as you have above might be confusing to many who are studying the English language.


I correct my friend-- and she is always grateful. Plus-- I usually correct her written English in her Emails-- which she also appreciates.