the problem with learning japanese

[Trifectionx]

let me be clear. there are multiple aspects to this subject, but i am going to focus on just one.

i'm going to start with a story.

wen moving to my new flat in university i met my new flat mates, who had already been acquainted with each other for several weeks. one of the several foreign students, from spain, came to manchester to learn english. as a fellow language student i was happy to engage with him about various aspects of language, for instance what sounds natural, unnatural or down right ungrammatical in english. i could see how, although his current proficiency was quite good and more than adequate to see him through multiple common scenarios, his lack of refinement was frustrating as he wanted to take his accuracy to the next level.

so, despite the fear of looking like an elitist perfectionist, i tried to correct him whenever he made even small errors. it occured to me however, that my other flatmates never did this. aslong as it was not completely wrong they would ignore all the minor floors. my flatmate thinks he hasnt made a mistake and the mistake is reinforced.

my teacher also told me that when he went to japan and spoke japanese poorly, the locals would tell him, in fact, that his japanese was actually quite good. i feel that this was a mixture of the kind nature of the japanese and avoiding causing the foreigner to lose face from his liguistical errors.

it is a proven fact that outsiders are treated more kindly and as a result language slip ups are ignored.

[SHAD0W]

They tell you you're good because they don't expect you to go out of your way and learn a language thats completely different to your own, that you'll only be able to use in that one tiny part of the world. The fact that you can make the effort to squeeze out a "korr nee chee war" often enough to knock some locals in Japan off their feet.

Dude, you're in Manchester, one of the most ethnically diverse cities in England AND you're at Uni which means there's bound to be some exchange students. Go down to your international hub and ask the person in charge to give your details to any Japanese student willing to language exchange. Wait for them to contact you and when they do, spend lots of time with them, speak only in Japanese where possible TELL them to correct your mistakes otherwise they won't due to politeness.

Saying that though, none of the exchange students at my Uni have ever said "nihongo jiyouzu" to me lol

[Supperman]

Hi.
I'm a native-Japanese speaker who has been studying English for over 30 years.
I can speak English as a second language to some extent, and I can communicate with non-native English speaking people to some extent.
Yet if you are a native-English speaker, you know that I'm not a native-English speaker, because my English sentences are different from natives' English.

I think there are several levels of a language. For example;
Level one; unable to communicate, always
Level two; able to communicate, sometimes,
Level three; able to communicate, 75%,
Level four; able to communicate more than 90%, though unnatural as a native tongue
Level five;able to communicate always, almost natural
Level six; able to communicate perfectly, and identical to native-speakers

As a learner, one should have the aim to what level he should go.
AND
As a teacher, one would think what level he should request the learner to obtain.
They doesn't match from time to time, which is the cause of your trouble, right?

It depends on the situations.

If I want to take a comfortable and cheerful time with a foreign people, the Level three might be enough. My aim is not to correct his grammar, or not to improve his Japanese, but have fun with him, talking with him. In such cases, if he speaks Japanese with the level three, I would say "nihongo ga o jyouzu desune!"

If you want to improve Japanese to the level six, you should say to us about it. Then we will help you. But being-strict might be very tough thing to both of us.

////////////////////////////
And now, suppose I would request you the proofreading of my English sentences here, what will you do?

If I say that I want to become the level six, then you have to correct most of my English, don't you?

Besides, if I say that I only want to become the level three, then you just correct a few sentences, and you would say that my English is good,
wouldn't you?

I don't think it is the nature of Japanese people, but common to all human beings.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Trifectionx

it is a proven fact that outsiders are treated more kindly and as a result language slip ups are ignored.

This is true anywhere in the world. About the only person I correct on English is my mom (former English teacher) and my wife (in a teasing manner, as she's not from the US—and only very rarely).

It would ruin a conversation to correct someone's English whenever they made a mistake.

Parents don't really correct their two-year olds' grammar, either, and the kids get along just fine within another two years before school.

School is for getting great grammar. The real world is for improving your flow.

[Trifectionx]

interesting points but dont get me wrong. this is not a completely limiting factor and i constantly hassle my friends already for my accuracy.

im just putting it out there that in certain situations ppl wont correct u because they think it cud b rude wen u r trying so hard and u dnt know u sed anything wrong.

its different wen ur wrong, u mimic other ppls patterns naturally but wen ur older u need to be conscience of wots wrong and wots right.

as i sed though, this is just one aspect to language acquisition

[BobbyCooper]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

This is true anywhere in the world. About the only person I correct on English is my mom (former English teacher) and my wife (in a teasing manner, as she's not from the US—and only very rarely).

It would ruin a conversation to correct someone's English whenever they made a mistake.

Parents don't really correct their two-year olds' grammar, either, and the kids get along just fine within another two years before school.

School is for getting great grammar. The real world is for improving your flow.

I agree, this is a general phenomena everywhere you go! It shows that even the Western people still have enough civility and (sense of) shame left.

[nellie1208]

I think, there are no problems on learning Japanese, but what I can say is that it's not that easy to learn, it takes extra effort. I've been studying and practicing this language for almost 6 months. And, I am learning a little by little. It's good to learn other languages because it could help me interact with foreigners.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Trifectionx

I'm just putting it out there that in certain situations people wont correct u because they think it could be rude when you are trying so hard, and you don't know you said anything wrong.

It's different when you're wrong, you mimic other people's patterns naturally but when you're older you need to be conscious of what's wrong and what's right.

I really didn't like doing that, but I hope it proves a point.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by BobbyCooper

I agree, this is a general phenomena everywhere you go! It shows that even the Western people still have enough civility and (sense of) shame left.

"PHENOMENON" IS SINGULAR; "PHENOMENA" IS PLURAL!!1!

[JohnBraden]

I'm having a hard time with particles.
I thought about getting a book to help me,Oxford University Press: All About Particles: Naoko Chino, but I don't know much about the book other than it's published by Kodansha Int'l. I've heard they publish good books.