AmgedIsmail's Japanese Language Class

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Sumippi

Oh, yes, 「弊社」 is a 謙譲語/けんじょうご。(but 謙譲語 in English...?? 'The humble form'...??)

In English, we call
敬語 keigo (students don't translate this, but when we explain it to someone who doesn't know anything about Japanese, we tend to say "polite language" or something like that)
丁寧語 polite [form] or "desu/masu form"
謙譲語 humble [form]
尊敬語 honorific [form]
普通体 plain [form]

Some sample sentences:
"We studied お〜になる in class, but I still don't understand honorific speech."
"When you talk with friends, use plain form."
"Dictionary form is the present tense plain form."

For reference, pretty much no student in the US learns 美化語 as a term. When talking about this, we just describe it. We never say "use bikago in polite speech." Instead, we'd say something like "Use the o/go prefix in polite speech."

And, in all honesty, we usually don't learn how to properly use it anyway except for

Originally Posted by Random Japanese Teacher in the US

In polite speech, use 'o' with Japanese words. Use 'go' with Sino-Japanese words. For a few words, you have to always use the prefix with them, like with お茶 and ご飯.

Most students of Japanese, in my experience, never learn to tell the difference between Japanese and Sino-Japanese words. I remember when I began being able to; it was a huge revelation. Took me about a year and a half or two years of study I think.

[Sumippi]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

In English, we call
敬語 keigo (students don't translate this, but when we explain it to someone who doesn't know anything about Japanese, we tend to say "polite language" or something like that)
丁寧語 polite [form] or "desu/masu form"
謙譲語 humble [form]
尊敬語 honorific [form]
普通体 plain [form]

Some sample sentences:
"We studied お〜になる in class, but I still don't understand honorific speech."
"When you talk with friends, use plain form."
"Dictionary form is the present tense plain form."

For reference, pretty much no student in the US learns 美化語 as a term. When talking about this, we just describe it. We never say "use bikago in polite speech." Instead, we'd say something like "Use the o/go prefix in polite speech."

And, in all honesty, we usually don't learn how to properly use it anyway except for

Most students of Japanese, in my experience, never learn to tell the difference between Japanese and Sino-Japanese words. I remember when I began being able to; it was a huge revelation. Took me about a year and a half or two years of study I think.

Oh~~thank you so much, Kyle-sensei...!

So... 敬語 includes 丁寧語,尊敬語 and 謙譲語, and 普通体 is something that's not 敬語, right? Oh I don't remember learning the word 普通体...I'm even not sure if I've ever seen this word in my life...あほやん！どうしよう　笑!!

OK now I understand why 敬語 is not translated. Because we'd get confused with 丁寧語 if we did.

美化語（びかご）...OK I'll check my Japanese dictionary (again...).
'o/go prefix.' 今覚えました(^^)

Yes, o/go must be difficult, I guess. I don't think I can explain the usage of お and 御, I'm just using them without thinking about any rules...We say お茶 but not 御茶(gocha), we say ご飯 but not お飯(ohan). お水。お湯。お料理。お食事。ご機嫌。ご無沙汰。ご進 物。お知らせ。お尻。ご本。お豆腐。お箸。お豆さん(wh at is this さん？！ww)　お言葉。お世話。お車。おみ足...！？ww お手洗い、お洗濯、ご登場、ご対面、...ルールが…難し いです～（^_^;）

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Sumippi

So... 敬語 includes 丁寧語,尊敬語 and 謙譲語, and 普通体 is something that's not 敬語, right? Oh I don't remember learning the word 普通体...I'm even not sure if I've ever seen this word in my life...あほやん！どうしよう　笑!!

ハハ

外国語を勉強する生徒の母語話者より文法用語が知って いることが全く多いですよね。例えば、ベネズエラで育 った家内の英語文法の知識が詳しいです。「whichとthatは どう違うか」と、アメリカ人にきいたら、まあ、アメリ カ人は答えられないかもしれないけど、家内はできます ！

Yes, o/go must be difficult, I guess. I don't think I can explain the usage of お and 御, I'm just using them without thinking about any rules...We say お茶 but not 御茶(gocha), we say ご飯 but not お飯(ohan). お水。お湯。お料理。お食事。ご機嫌。ご無沙汰。ご進 物。お知らせ。お尻。ご本。お豆腐。お箸。お豆さん(wh at is this さん？！ww)　お言葉。お世話。お車。おみ足...！？ww お手洗い、お洗濯、ご登場、ご対面、...ルールが…難し いです～（^_^;）

What I was taught is that: For almost all Japanese-origin words, use お. For almost all loan words from Chinese to Japanese (i.e., "Sino-Japanese words"), use ご. For Sino-Japanese words that have been an integral part of Japanese for a really long time, break the rule and use お. This explains お茶 even though it's from the Chinese "cha1".

You eventually develop an ear for telling the difference in the same way educated native English speakers eventually can tell whether a Modern English word came from Old English, French, Latin, or Greek (but often the word went Latin->French->English, so there is some ambiguity).

[Sumippi]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

ハハ

外国語を勉強する生徒の母語話者より文法用語が知って いることが全く多いですよね。例えば、ベネズエラで育 った家内の英語文法の知識が詳しいです。「whichとthatは どう違うか」と、アメリカ人にきいたら、まあ、アメリ カ人は答えられないかもしれないけど、家内はできます ！)

Yes I think I can see that... Reminded me of my linguistics professor in college telling us like... 'We tend to be using our native language (=Japanese) carelessly, and never notice some things/rules etc. about it that other language speakers can easily notice. The reverse is true; we can find some sorts of things about the English language while its native speakers tend to overlook them. That's partly why some well-known English language researchers are not from English spoken countries.'
He told us that we had an advantage in that point...I'm not sure about that though... 笑

For Sino-Japanese words that have been an integral part of Japanese for a really long time, break the rule and use お. This explains お茶 even though it's from the Chinese "cha1".

あ～なるほど・・・！！
あ、でも、私、「お」「御」は正しく付けられますが、 Japanese wordか、Sino-Japanese かは、全然区別できていません・・・。

You eventually develop an ear for telling the difference in the same way educated native English speakers eventually can tell whether a Modern English word came from Old English, French, Latin, or Greek (but often the word went Latin->French->English, so there is some ambiguity).

そ、それは難しそうですね、ラテン語起源くらいしか分 からないかも・・・（そのまんまだから）。う～ん…例 えば、beef, porkがフランス起源で、cow, pigがドイツ語とか古英語とかから来た、などということ って、「語の形」で分かるものなんでしょうか、（いや 、日本語すらも出来ていない私なので絶対無理・・・orz ）



（私はなぜ、日本語には英語で、英語には日本語で答え たのだろう・・・謎w）

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Sumippi

そ、それは難しそうですね、ラテン語起源くらいしか分 からないかも・・・（そのまんまだから）。う～ん…例 えば、beef, porkがフランス起源で、cow, pigがドイツ語とか古英語とかから来た、などということ って、「語の形」で分かるものなんでしょうか、（いや 、日本語すらも出来ていない私なので絶対無理・・・orz ）

"Beef" and "pork" are tough, aren't they!

Typically, it is said that old concepts and ideas are going to be descended from the same langauge's forebearer. For example, (Old) English speakers a thousand years ago needed to be able to talk about water since it existed there. So they had a word for it. So naturally that word continued on to Modern English (wæter -> water). But for a newer concept like "jury," the dominant language of the time (French in England, spoken by the aristocracy) donated the word (juris (Lat.)->juree (Anglo-French)->jury).

The interesting thing about "beef" and "pork" is that the animal name is from Old English (cu->cow, pacg->pig), but the meat word is from French/Latin (boeuf->beef, porcus->pork). The theory is that poor, English-speaking people tended the animals (and so used Old English words), but the wealthy people who ate the meat, and the cooks who worked for the wealthy people in the kitchen, had to use the French word (boeuf, porcus).

An important thing to note, for people who don't know the history of England, is that in 1006 A.D., it was taken over by the French, and French remained the "court" language until the middle of the millennium.

To this day, Latin/French-based words carry an air of sophistication in English that Germanic words do not. Consider please pardon my profanity, but I think this is a very interesting demonstration

"feces" versus "shit"
"copulate" versus "fuck"
"illegitimate" versus "bastard"
"penis" versus "dick/cock/prick"
etc.

Also, non-profane words like
labor vs. work
feline vs. cat
canine vs. dog
sustenance/cuisine vs. food/meal

Couple final notes: Japanese holds Chinese in similar respect, linguistically, with 使う being a less sophisticated word compared to 使用する, 買う vs. 購入する, etc.

Also, I tended to treat Latin and French equally in my post. This is because Latin was brought to England by the French (technically the Romans brought Latin to England, retreated and the language died out, then the French re-brought it, and it survived for a few hundred years as the upper-class language). Educated Japanese used Chinese hundreds of years ago while the lower classes used Japanese. Same deal.

You could say the 美化語 technique in English is to replace Germanic words with Latin/Frankish words.

[Sumippi]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

"Beef" and "pork" are tough, aren't they!

The interesting thing about "beef" and "pork" is that the animal name is from Old English (cu->cow, pacg->pig), but the meat word is from French/Latin (boeuf->beef, porcus->pork). The theory is that poor, English-speaking people tended the animals (and so used Old English words), but the wealthy people who ate the meat, and the cooks who worked for the wealthy people in the kitchen, had to use the French word (boeuf, porcus).

An important thing to note, for people who don't know the history of England, is that in 1006 A.D., it was taken over by the French, and French remained the "court" language until the middle of the millennium.

有難うございます~大学時代に戻ったみたい！え、難し� �んですか。。。
あ、確か・・・ノルマンコンクエストとかいうころから の話でしたっけ。やっぱり少しは歴史を知らないとなぁ …って感じです。

To this day, Latin/French-based words carry an air of sophistication in English that Germanic words do not. Consider please pardon my profanity, but I think this is a very interesting demonstration

"feces" versus "shit"
"copulate" versus "fuck"
"illegitimate" versus "bastard"
"penis" versus "dick/cock/prick"
etc.

うわっ一瞬びっくりしたっ
えっこれ、語源が関係するなんて！へ～すごいイイこと 聞いちゃった感。

Also, non-profane words like
labor vs. work
feline vs. cat
canine vs. dog
sustenance/cuisine vs. food/meal

Couple final notes: Japanese holds Chinese in similar respect, linguistically, with 使う being a less sophisticated word compared to 使用する, 買う vs. 購入する, etc.

あ、確かに…そういえば、二字熟語の方が堅めで、賢そ うですものね～友達へのメールは「使う」でも、丁寧な 文書だとやはり二字熟語の方を選びますね。

Also, I tended to treat Latin and French equally in my post. This is because Latin was brought to England by the French (technically the Romans brought Latin to England, retreated and the language died out, then the French re-brought it, and it survived for a few hundred years as the upper-class language). Educated Japanese used Chinese hundreds of years ago while the lower classes used Japanese. Same deal.

You could say the 美化語 technique in English is to replace Germanic words with Latin/Frankish words.

な～る・・・そうしますと、私なんか、丁寧かどうかな んて考えないで英語書いてたら、ごちゃ混ぜになって、 統一感がなくて不格好だったりしてるかも…？です。

何だか、丁寧さに関して「日英言語比較論」が出来そう です～