Kanji learning method.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by jamchan

I have a few manga's with furigana. I can start with reading that until I got some decent books. I've read a lot recommendations for books from Murakami Haruki. I'll give those a try as well.

Just so you know, reading literature at your level is going to be a very slow-moving process. You should start with short stories. Try 100パーセントの恋愛小説 by Murakami. It's very short and very good.

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

I can't recommend any books for beginning with kanji. But at a sufficiently intermediate level, Kanji in Context (book) + Anki (software) = all joyo kanji in under two years, especially if you combine it with a little light reading every day (say, one newspaper article).

This Anki stuff is not bad, I just had a look. There are many various downloads there, which one are you using for learning vocab, Kyle?

[Nyororin]

I am one of those against the Heisig method in every way and have never seen work in a real life situation. Tons of people will toss out the number of kanji they know, and the list of them, etc... But I have yet to see someone actually reading properly rather than just pointing out and telling the meaning.
I am sure there are people out there who have done it, but they are in a serious minority. I think the method remains popular not because it works well as a way to actually learn Japanese for use, but rather because it can give the illusion of knowing a lot more than is true for those self studying.

I would say that I learned most of the kanji and vocabulary learned through kanji (in contrast to the vocab learned through interaction) by reading.
While more serious and famous novels are good, I really would not recommend them to an early learner. Famous authors are famous because of their writing style, and often that includes stylistic elements that can be very hard to understand. It really sucks to read a passage, know what it means technically, but to have it go over your head because you don't "get" it in context.

My recommendation for earlier reading would be fairly simple light novels. Sure, they aren't high literature, but the majority are written with a younger reader in mind and are designed to be clear and keep the reader interested in the story. Deeper stuff can come later when less will be flying over your head.
I made the mistake of reading the 十二国記 series before I was ready for it, and while I learned a lot of new stuff in the process and *thought* that I got the majority of it... Reading it again later was like reading a completely different novel as I had missed out on so much the first time. I was lucky to understand what I did - a little less and I would have probably lost interest and not bothered reading it at all. (And in reality, I ended up dropping reading it the first time through once it got into heavy political talk as too much went over my head to follow it at all after a certain point.)

Too much frustration is fatal, so try to find something that will do its very best to keep your interest.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

This Anki stuff is not bad, I just had a look. There are many various downloads there, which one are you using for learning vocab, Kyle?

I built my own based on Kanji in Context. The point of the book(s) is that you are learning kanji through a large number of vocabulary words. I have been doing it a couple years now at an off-and-on pace, and in that two years I've noticed a dramatic uptick in how much I can effortlessly read.

The only problem is that I've subconsciously gotten used to a single font, so when I started doing Anki on my cell, which uses a different font for kanji, about 10% of the kanji I absolutely could not recognize just because of stylistic differences.

For example, 窮 has these words: 窮屈な、窮乏生活、窮状、困窮、窮極の、窮める、窮ま る. Now, obviously, you're learning just words by my explanation so far. That's where the "in Context" part of the book comes in. There's a workbook with these words being used in real situations. I haven't used that, and instead just read more and, when there's a confusing word I don't understand, I will actually go to Eijiro and look at sample sentences with the word.

But keep in mind, I have not tried to learn to write any new kanji. It's all about reading them + learning new vocab. Zero focus on writing (but I've noticed that since I've seen the kanji so many times now that my writing ability has gone up, too, with zero attention paid to it).

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I am one of those against the Heisig method in every way and have never seen work in a real life situation. Tons of people will toss out the number of kanji they know, and the list of them, etc... But I have yet to see someone actually reading properly rather than just pointing out and telling the meaning.

*shrugs* Heisig's method is about learning how to WRITE the kanji, for reading em, most people take a different approach. And the reason we like it, is because it SAVES TIME.

Attempt remembering something like this kanji, 'just with the contex' 議, now try it again within one month again, see if you can still remember how to write it.

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

It really sucks to read a passage, know what it means technically, but to have it go over your head because you don't "get" it in context.

Now you know how I feel with the books I a reading lol. Even Japanese can't get their meaning, whether it is in or out of context.

I think what I will do is I will build my own vocab on Anki, taken from books about calligraphy. I dont care about economy related words, what I need is specialised pool of words and phrases.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

Now you know how I feel with the books I a reading lol. Even Japanese can't get their meaning, whether it is in or out of context.

I think what I will do is I will build my own vocab on Anki, taken from books about calligraphy. I dont care about economy related words, what I need is specialised pool of words and phrases.

Yeah, I've been thinking about doing something similar with legal documents.

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

Yeah, I've been thinking about doing something similar with legal documents.

Precisely. The daily stuff will be inhaled on the go anyway, and if we focus on general lingo, then we will　be generally good at nothing.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

Precisely. The daily stuff will be inhaled on the go anyway, and if we focus on general lingo, then we will　be generally good at nothing.

Back before I knew nearly all the joyo kanji, there used to be an amount of vocab so large that it couldn't be inhaled on the go. Reading was slow.

But now that I'm further along, I really need to make a detailed study of Japanese contracts and such, how the clauses are structured, etc.

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

Back before I knew nearly all the joyo kanji, there used to be an amount of vocab so large that it couldn't be inhaled on the go. Reading was slow.

But now that I'm further along, I really need to make a detailed study of Japanese contracts and such, how the clauses are structured, etc.

I know what you mean, I am a lawyer as well. Bloody glad I am not practicing though.