Martial Arts

[godwine]

Originally Posted by Natsume

Tradional Taekwondo is the style I practice.

Ahh. ITF, GTF or WTF? I am a 3rd den in TKD myself (non international), but I stopped practicing since a while ago, I am now doing Goju

[yuujirou]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Yeah, that back kick he keeps doing in the first half of the vid is my fav kick. I do it all the time. Not many others do so most people are not ready to block it. It is best you just move back out of its way than try to stop it.

I am trying to be a more heavy weight fighter than that guy, though. He must be what, 70 kilo? I am getting up to 90 kilo now. Makes for a less acrobatic fighter, but you'll notice a satisfying 'THUD' when I land a kick!

idk...
i'm personally more partial too that 'slap' that you get from a fast, light, but powerful kick
as opposed too that heavy thud xDDD
buut that's just me
lolz

[Amnell]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

I am basically talking about the basic round kick. TKD literally flicks the foot from the hip and knee where as Muay Thai is more so bashing the shin as if it were a baseball bat.

A Happkido instructor once raised his knee having his leg hang limp below that and told me "Powerful kicks come from here". That is not true. Some do, but many dont. That is just the style of kicking. And it may well be slightly faster than MT, but definatly just that kick is less power.

As for most the other kicks they are as powerful as they can be when done the TKD way.

Tenchu, remember that TKD as practiced today is a Sport Art, not a Combat Art (Muay Thai is somewhat, also, but it's still nicely rooted in the combative stuff--which is awesome). Most schools teach you to use speed and control your power so that you can score points. One of my favourite kicks, the hook kick, is very sneaky and very fast, but has very little power. It's application is in getting a quick point--or throwing the opponent's focus to somewhere where it shouldn't be ("How did I get hit?") in actual combat.

Don't fool yourself, though. A practitioner of TKD can have just as much power in a kick as you can as a MT professional. I think it was my third belt that I started getting curriculum that focused on power. The first "power" kick that they taught me, oddly enough, was a "Muay Thai Thigh Kick". The only real difference between it and any other kick was the preceding step-out and the target of the kick. This was incorporated into our TKD instruction, though. From learning that one kick and how it works, every kick I know, save a few, I can make really powerful.

I will agree, though, for reasons outlined in the first paragraph, that most kicks in modern TkD are designed to be more quick than powerful. I also agree that back kicks kick ass .

[Amnell]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

There are different types of it, Amnell. Dont generalize. TKD originated from Karate some 50 years ago or something. Neither of the styles have ever been quite so sneaky in ways of taking down the opponent (eye gouges, ball snatching) but it goes without saying; they are designed to hurt someone. It is more common to associate the TKD style with its own sport of armoured practitioners simply trying to touch each other, yet the style is present in kick boxing tournaments.

Do you understand the difference between ametuer and professional fighting? TKD is more common in ametuer, where it is scoring. But the goal of a professional fight is to KO or seriously injure your opponent. The strikes in TKD and Karate are designed to hurt people. The kick I am talking about is present in the style because that is what the people who made the style figured was the best way to perform that kind of kick.

You can call it a sport, and not fighting, but I wouldn't. I am training to KO people, sprain or even break joints from striking, and disable my opponent as quickly and as best I can.

... I dont think you have much experience here...

TKD did not originate from Karate. It has influences from Karate, but its direct parent is a Korean art form that was practiced by armies about a hundred years prior.

They type of TKD I'm talking about is type that your average soccer mom takes her five year old to; the type that teaches you the rules and techniques used by Olympic competitors without teaching you a damn thing about how to survive a lethal encounter on the street. That's the most common form of TKD you can find, at least in the States--and I'm sure in most places, also.

TKD is an Olympic event, yet they score by points for contact. Seems professional enough to me :/ . What you're talking about is whether or not the system is based around hurting the competitors or safeguarding the competitors. MT, boxing, MMA and the like are all based on a system where your goal is to beat the shit out of the other guy more effectively than he does you. Wrestling, TKD, and fencing competitions are typically point based so that you don't have to wail on the guy to get points--instead, you need finesse.

Remember that in English, the word "professional" only means "a person who is paid to perform a service". No where in any definition of "professional" are the words "expert, badass, uber1337," or "hardcore".

If something is performed competitively under controlled conditions, it's usually considered a sport. TKD is a sport art. MT is a sport art. MT is much more combative than TKD because it has been practiced under rules that require you to injure your opponent to win, hence a lot of the super-ninja things that were developed three hundred years ago to kill an opponent quickly are still present. It's still a sport art.

Insofar as competition goes, no, I haven't done a whole lot of that. However, I have trained in TKD for some time and have plenty of experience with it.

Originally Posted by Tenchu

If I believed that, which I mostly dont, I would say you would have broken your foot by now. The MT kick is too powerful to use the foot to strike with. Something I figured out by trial and error. You have to use the shin. The TKD version of the kick flicks the foot, so the power is not delivered in the same way, making it technically an entirly different kick, even though they look so similar. The foot work also has to change a great deal. Given the TKD stance will have you standing both feet in a stright line to your opponent it is impossible to launch the MT round kick from this position. Simply, by swinging your leg from this angle you will have poor balance and loose too much power from it. MT boxers stand more like a boxer than a TKD guy. You can mix the kicks, I do, but involves a lot of thinking about what you can and can not do and what you sacrafice and keep and a lot of adaption of the styles. It is impossible to simply add a single kick into a style in most cases. If you think you can you should record it on video so I can see exactly what you are doing.

Indeed, we did use our shin. I always hated that because I couldn't feel how hard I was hitting and it made me feel like I had no control over my own power :P .

You're mistaken about the stance in TKD. Our stance was not in a straight line. In fact, ANY art that teaches you to stand with your feet in a straight line to the opponent is a REALLY BAD art. The TKD stance is very deep, which allows for larger movement and a stronger base to launch kicks from. The hips more or less face the opponent, though, as with most styles. We also trained to move from Cat Stance a lot, starting with the fourth belt.

To do the MT Thigh Kick, we did have to include a step, though. It wasn’t so much because the kick didn’t work out of that stance as it was that you get a lot more power if you include the step. The step was a V step to your outside (with your front leg) so that you would have momentum already traveling in the direction of your kick and so you could plant your foot in such a way that you wouldn’t twist your ankle around four times in the event that you missed your opponent.

Originally Posted by ”Tenchu”

... ALL TKD kicks are modern... silly... And I dont agree in that. From everything I have learned from TKD it is the transfer of power that is emphasized. I have heard of people doing side kicks and striking with the ball of the foot instead of the heel to add more range, but loose all power, just to score a hit, yet this is not actually the style, just cheating.

In the sense that the art itself hasn’t been around for a whole century yet, sure . When I say “modern”, I mean the way that it is most typically taught today.

That’s an example of the sport taking over the combat. At my school, we were taught to use the blade of our foot to concentrate as much energy in as small an area as possible to deliver the most damage. The self-defense school I go to now also teaches to use the blade of the foot, but their theory is that it’s the best way to kick a person’s knee from the side because the edge of your foot can almost fit in between the bones in that joint and tear tendons without even misaligning the joint itself, or something like that :P. That foot shape wasn’t taught at my TKD school until the eighth belt, when you start learning to break boards. Up to then, the emphasis was placed on your flexibility and your speed.

[ivi0nk3y]

I had a "street fight" the other day. Some prick who had an apparent disagreement about what lane I was meant to take on a roundabout, followed me. I was going to work but I didn't want some guy following me all the way there so I stopped my car on a side road and got out. I tried explaining that you are supposed to merge into the appropriate lane, which he failed to do but he didn't want a diplomatic solution.
He started shouting curses and whatnot and took a few swings at me which I blocked. I was right next to a police station too so I didn't wanna make it worse so I ran into him before he could punch again and wrestled him to the floor, with his head in a headlock. He somehow got free and tried punching my face while I was on the floor, which I deflected but in the effort, his other hand came round and gripped my face, giving me a 4 inch scratch from his gay ass nails.
I got pissed off, picked him off the ground, got him in a headlock and pushed him onto the bonnet of his car. Then I threatened to snap his neck if he didn't let go, which he eventually did. By this time there were people everywhere and someone had called the police.
I quickly got into my car and drove off but apparently they followed him and arrested him then came and took me with them to get a statement. I also got a free Tetanus shot, just in case the scratch, (which is pretty deep) got infected or something. -_-'
After all is said and done, i'm happy that i'm strong enough to fend off a very muscular person so I thank my training for that. If I hadn't grappled with him and instead got into a fighting stance, it would have been a very different situation and I would've probably been detained instead for giving the guy some injuries he rather not have.
I would've rather dropped the case against him but apparently nowadays, that is in the hands of the police and whether they get sufficient evidence or not.

[godwine]

Originally Posted by Amnell

TKD did not originate from Karate. It has influences from Karate, but its direct parent is a Korean art form that was practiced by armies about a hundred years prior.

They type of TKD I'm talking about is type that your average soccer mom takes her five year old to; the type that teaches you the rules and techniques used by Olympic competitors without teaching you a damn thing about how to survive a lethal encounter on the street. That's the most common form of TKD you can find, at least in the States--and I'm sure in most places, also.

TKD is an Olympic event, yet they score by points for contact. Seems professional enough to me :/ . What you're talking about is whether or not the system is based around hurting the competitors or safeguarding the competitors. MT, boxing, MMA and the like are all based on a system where your goal is to beat the shit out of the other guy more effectively than he does you. Wrestling, TKD, and fencing competitions are typically point based so that you don't have to wail on the guy to get points--instead, you need finesse.

Remember that in English, the word "professional" only means "a person who is paid to perform a service". No where in any definition of "professional" are the words "expert, badass, uber1337," or "hardcore".

If something is performed competitively under controlled conditions, it's usually considered a sport. TKD is a sport art. MT is a sport art. MT is much more combative than TKD because it has been practiced under rules that require you to injure your opponent to win, hence a lot of the super-ninja things that were developed three hundred years ago to kill an opponent quickly are still present. It's still a sport art.

Insofar as competition goes, no, I haven't done a whole lot of that. However, I have trained in TKD for some time and have plenty of experience with it.



Indeed, we did use our shin. I always hated that because I couldn't feel how hard I was hitting and it made me feel like I had no control over my own power :P .

You're mistaken about the stance in TKD. Our stance was not in a straight line. In fact, ANY art that teaches you to stand with your feet in a straight line to the opponent is a REALLY BAD art. The TKD stance is very deep, which allows for larger movement and a stronger base to launch kicks from. The hips more or less face the opponent, though, as with most styles. We also trained to move from Cat Stance a lot, starting with the fourth belt.

To do the MT Thigh Kick, we did have to include a step, though. It wasn’t so much because the kick didn’t work out of that stance as it was that you get a lot more power if you include the step. The step was a V step to your outside (with your front leg) so that you would have momentum already traveling in the direction of your kick and so you could plant your foot in such a way that you wouldn’t twist your ankle around four times in the event that you missed your opponent.

[color=black]

In the sense that the art itself hasn’t been around for a whole century yet, sure . When I say “modern”, I mean the way that it is most typically taught today.

That’s an example of the sport taking over the combat. At my school, we were taught to use the blade of our foot to concentrate as much energy in as small an area as possible to deliver the most damage. The self-defense school I go to now also teaches to use the blade of the foot, but their theory is that it’s the best way to kick a person’s knee from the side because the edge of your foot can almost fit in between the bones in that joint and tear tendons without even misaligning the joint itself, or something like that :P. That foot shape wasn’t taught at my TKD school until the eighth belt, when you start learning to break boards. Up to then, the emphasis was placed on your flexibility and your speed.

Just to your first line. I believe you are referring to Hwarang Do that split up into multiple different arts. The split resulted in Taekwon Do, Hapkido and several different art.

And yes, it was more of an Influenced than a Copy.

[godwine]

Amnell, one more thing, the style of TKD you are referring (Soccer mom taking 5 years old kid to) to is generally known as sport TKD, and are studied by WTF people. There are tones of other TKD style, with ITF and GTF being the more well known, they are mostly immature at best at this point because of its short history, but they are slowly becoming more and more popular, for example, things like NTF and CTF (national taekwond do federation, Combat taekwon do federation) are becoming more popular. They teach the most practical stuff, and also inherited a lot of illegal "killing" technique from Hwarang Do, similar to those from Okinawa Ko Ryu and Kobu Do.

The downside of NTF and CTF is that its a pure body training, there are no mind training at all that tells you and teach you how to align your mindset and to be a good person. Which I disagree of in a "art", martial art should be training beyond the body.

If there are NTF and CTF practitioner who disagree, please correct me

Thanks
G

[Ronin4hire]

With regard to the "TKD was influenced by Karate but is derived from Tae Kyun" statement. How do you decide if a martial art is the parent of another or whether it was simply an influence?

To me it seems redundant to make the distinction. I suspect this distinction only serves as Korean propaganda so as to sell the image of TKD as a purely Korean martial art.

Anyway... I always thought that TKD was derived from Tae Kyun and Karate.

[Amnell]

To answer your question, you determine the "parent" of a martial art by learning about the people who created the art in question had learned and in what environment it was developed.

The "parent" art of American Kenpo is Karate. The man who developed the system started in Karate and ported what he'd learned in that style into his own system.

Kendo developed out of Kenjutsu; Kenjutsu was what people were studying when the Katana was still weapon of choice in Japan, and it was deadly. Kendo uses the same principles and movements, but it is not a combative style.

TKD, iirc, was developed after the Korean military's system fell out of use, but there were still people who practiced it that later developed TKD from their own knowledge and that of other people from other styles. (iirc)

[zachart]

I have created my own kind of martial arts... i did it from watching diferent types... learning about the human body and now i have created my own type...