When armor and swords clashed...

[CrimsonNataku]

Originally Posted by dragonrazor

i never said samurai-ninja...i said samurai who took missions similar to those a ninja would have taken. and i am indeed accurate as far as the sword. because a ninja does NOT use a katana. their sword is entirely different. as for the kenshin thing, that's interesting...i had been told it was based on a man with the same last name

I apologize, I misunderstood. But regardless samurai did not undertake missions similar to those of ninja; such tasks go against their ethics and philosophy.

I own a real ninja-to and a real katana and have compared them myself. Although it's true a ninja's sword is different, there are similarities between the two. The blade of a ninja-to is still curved (although much less than a katana) but it's shorter, and it's made through the same process as a katana.

[seiki]

a samurai would never take a ninja-like mission or anything like that they didn't even choose their own missions they had masters you know

[dragonrazor]

Originally Posted by seiki

a samurai would never take a ninja-like mission or anything like that they didn't even choose their own missions they had masters you know

actually, according to legend, when Japan was first opened to the europeans, a group of "ninja", later revealed to be samurai, tried to kill a european ambassador, as well as a legendary chinese hero who was visiting. At least, i think it took place in Japan...it might actually have been in a China, which at the time had a great deal of Japanese influence. His name was Wong Fei-Hung, and he was both a master martial artist (including the Drunken Fist style, according to one interpretation) and a doctor. granted, there are a great deal of legends surrounding the man, but this was a bit unique. the task of the samurai was to implicate the ninja, who, at the time, were servants of the Emperor, just like the Samurai were. you said it yourself, the Samurai served their master, their Daimyo...they were honorbound to follow his orders, and even if they were ridiculous, as in this case, it was considered shameful not to follow them. it caused a great deal of conflict even amongst the samurai ranks, because even though it was dishonorable to deny the orders, following them was ALSO dishonorable. but those alledged "ninja" used singleedged straight katana, instead of the slightly curved katana you are describing or the doubleedged blades more classically attributed to the ninja (which curved towards the tip, but were in fact straight-edged, as i've said)


i will post images of the blades as soon as i find them....one will be a more modern remake (same style, but with a futuristic look) but hopefully i can find a classicly styled singleedged one

[dragonrazor]

http://budk.com/images/500/BK385.jpg
THIS is the style classically attributed to the Ninja. double-edged, and only curving at the tip.

http://budk.com/images/500/BK277.jpg
this is the type i was referring to, belonging to the group of ALLEDGED "ninja"

http://budk.com/images/500/UC1258.jpg
this is the sort of blade i assume you mean when you say ninja blade (slightly curved, straight edge...ignore the handle)...it is a SAMURAI weapon, not a ninja one

oooo...i just found a katana similar to one i tried to train with as a child...a standard samurai katana, but with both the leading and trailing edges sharpened....i stopped trying when i cut my ear on the backswing

EDIT: i also just realized that that second style was also used in the movie The Last Samurai....while it was true that the group using it were supposed to be ninja, the sword itself was not used by the ninja...in fact, the swords being used were clearly not even an authentic style, which i found rather funny.

[CrimsonNataku]

Originally Posted by dragonrazor

actually, according to legend, when Japan was first opened to the europeans, a group of "ninja", later revealed to be samurai, tried to kill a european ambassador, as well as a legendary chinese hero who was visiting. At least, i think it took place in Japan...it might actually have been in a China, which at the time had a great deal of Japanese influence. His name was Wong Fei-Hung, and he was both a master martial artist (including the Drunken Fist style, according to one interpretation) and a doctor. granted, there are a great deal of legends surrounding the man, but this was a bit unique. the task of the samurai was to implicate the ninja, who, at the time, were servants of the Emperor, just like the Samurai were. you said it yourself, the Samurai served their master, their Daimyo...they were honorbound to follow his orders, and even if they were ridiculous, as in this case, it was considered shameful not to follow them. it caused a great deal of conflict even amongst the samurai ranks, because even though it was dishonorable to deny the orders, following them was ALSO dishonorable. but those alledged "ninja" used singleedged straight katana, instead of the slightly curved katana you are describing or the doubleedged blades more classically attributed to the ninja (which curved towards the tip, but were in fact straight-edged, as i've said)

You just said yourself: "according to legend." There are no solid, reliable historical records to support your statement. It's pure myth. I've studied Japanese History extensively, in fact I teach Japanese History to teenagers, and I have never read nor heard of any historical evidence to confirm this "legend" as fact.

The time period you are referring to is the very end of the Tokugawa period; Wong Fei Hung never came to Japan during this time. Rather, the only official record of him interacting with the Japanese was when he fought against their army in Taiwan.

During this time period you are referring to, there was a lot of inner turmoil and conflict between those who supported the Shogun and those who supported the Emperor. The Shogun's side was open to foreign influence, while the Emperor supporters, aka Imperial Loyalists were not. The incident you are referring to had nothing to do with ninja. Ronin members of one of several Imperial Loyalist parties took it upon themselves to attempt to assassinate a foreign ambassador, they were not ordered to do it by any daimyo; those Imperial Loyalists acted of their own accord, some of them AGAINST the wishes of their daimyo.

What's more, neither the ninja nor the samurai served the Emperor. If they served any one figure, it would be the Shogun since it was he who was actually in power (the Emperor up until now has been little more than a figurehead). Otherwise they would serve their respective daimyo (feudal lords).

[dragonrazor]

Originally Posted by CrimsonNataku

You just said yourself: "according to legend." There are no solid, reliable historical records to support your statement. It's pure myth. I've studied Japanese History extensively, in fact I teach Japanese History to teenagers, and I have never read nor heard of any historical evidence to confirm this "legend" as fact.

The time period you are referring to is the very end of the Tokugawa period; Wong Fei Hung never came to Japan during this time. Rather, the only official record of him interacting with the Japanese was when he fought against their army in Taiwan.

During this time period you are referring to, there was a lot of inner turmoil and conflict between those who supported the Shogun and those who supported the Emperor. The Shogun's side was open to foreign influence, while the Emperor supporters, aka Imperial Loyalists were not. The incident you are referring to had nothing to do with ninja. Ronin members of one of several Imperial Loyalist parties took it upon themselves to attempt to assassinate a foreign ambassador, they were not ordered to do it by any daimyo; those Imperial Loyalists acted of their own accord, some of them AGAINST the wishes of their daimyo.

What's more, neither the ninja nor the samurai served the Emperor. If they served any one figure, it would be the Shogun since it was he who was actually in power (the Emperor up until now has been little more than a figurehead). Otherwise they would serve their respective daimyo (feudal lords).

meh....i study the weapons, not the full history....but yeah, the bokken is the only singleedged ninja blade i've ever seen, and it's a wooden trainer.

[CrimsonNataku]

Originally Posted by dragonrazor

meh....i study the weapons, not the full history....but yeah, the bokken is the only singleedged ninja blade i've ever seen, and it's a wooden trainer.

If you ever have the opportunity, go to the Ninja Museum in Iga-Ueno, Japan. You'll find quite a few non-wooden single-edged ninja blades on display there (among other things). So far, that's the best place I've found to go and see historical ninja weaponry.

[seiki]

and besides i thought that the ninja were mostly theives towards the end.
and why do you keep bringing up ninja swords?

[dragonrazor]

because i keep seeing weapons that weren't used by the ninja as being classified as ninja weapons....this is a topic about swords and armor

anyways, yes, towards the end they were theives, but originally they were fiercely loyal. everyone views them as ruthless murderers and such, but that's only recent history