Rape games to be banned in Japan

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

What I think is not important. Whether or not the fact that female players exist is relevant or not is up to you to decide. If the number seems small enough to you for you to dismiss it as irrelevant, you are free to do so, as long as you back up why it should be considered so. I just felt it hadn't been considered by either side at all, and to me, that was an egregious oversight.

I do see and acknowledge the existence of women with rape fetish fantasies...but there is still a part of me that says it isn't the same as men with rape fetish fantasies.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Ah. You bring up one of my favorite quotes, MMM.

"Those that sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither." - Ben Franklin

That is a good one. And with great power comes great responsibility...

[Tsuwabuki]

Then be prepared to justify your thought process. I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning why this is.

As an aside, I think I can already see where you're going based on your race comparison earlier. For the record, I am white, and attended a Historically Black University for half of my graduation requirements, and a mostly white prestigious state university for the other half at the same time. So I am as torn on that issue as I am on this one: I see coherent arguments for both. Especially as I do know what it is like the be on the opposite side of the fence (I was only one of two white students at the former school, and there were... incidents).

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Then be prepared to justify your thought process. I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning why this is.

As an aside, I think I can already see where you're going based on your race comparison earlier. For the record, I am white, and attended a Historically Black University for half of my graduation requirements, and a mostly white prestigious state university for the other half at the same time. So I am as torn on that issue as I am on this one: I see coherent arguments for both. Especially as I do know what it is like the be on the opposite side of the fence (I was only one of two white students at the former school, and there were... incidents).

Which comment is this directed at?

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by MMM

I do see and acknowledge the existence of women with rape fetish fantasies...but there is still a part of me that says it isn't the same as men with rape fetish fantasies.

This one. You say it's different, and imply that it is substantially so to warrant actions targeting male gamers over female gamers. I want to know your justification for saying so.

You earlier say that black entertainers can get away with jokes about white people that white entertainers can't as an example of the same sort of double-standard being acceptable.

As someone who has been in a situation where such commentary made me very, very uncomfortable (I was clearly a minority, and clearly suffered racism on a surprisingly, shockingly frequent basis... if I had it to do over, I would still do it, as it was a very disturbing, yet enriching experience), I question both your comparison AND the original issue.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by TheLastFortnight

I almost missed this comment. Yeah and about how bad these consequences are and how to deal with it should be the subject under discussion here and not female fantasy versus male fantasy.

Much like affirmative action, whether or not there is an inherent and relevant difference between the fantasies is germane to any decision being made about what actions should be taken. If no such relevant difference exists, then any action must be unilateral or else it is discriminatory. If there is a difference, it must be adequately demonstrated and backed up.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

This one. You say it's different, and imply that it is substantially so to warrant actions targeting male gamers over female gamers. I want to know your justification for saying so.

I said this statement two times, the first time backing away saying "a larger part of me says rape is rape."

I am not sure how you can say "substantially so to warrant actions against male gamers." What actions did I warrant? I think you are putting words in my mouth (but if I did say it, please show me).

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You earlier say that black entertainers can get away with jokes about white people that white entertainers can't as an example of the same sort of double-standard being acceptable.

Society accepts this standard. You can call it a double-standard, you can call it retributions. You can call it putting balance back into the force.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

As someone who has been in a situation where such commentary made me very, very uncomfortable (I was clearly a minority, and clearly suffered racism on a surprisingly, shockingly frequent basis... if I had it to do over, I would still do it, as it was a very disturbing, yet enriching experience), I question both your comparison AND the original issue.

I too, have lived in a society where I was the minority. The nice thing that I had, and you had, was the power to leave at the drop of a dime and return to the comforts of a situation where I was safely in the majority any time I wanted. Women don't have that power, and blacks in America don't have that power.

I am a little confused because it sounds like you wanted me to acknowledge the fact that women can have rape fantasies but not talk about the fact that women are the vast majority of rape victims.

Black people may have prejudices against whites, but they are the vast majority of victims of racism.

Both rape and racism are vulgar displays of power, so I think the comparison is legitimate.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by MMM

I said this statement two times, the first time backing away saying "a larger part of me says rape is rape."

I am not sure how you can say "substantially so to warrant actions against male gamers." What actions did I warrant? I think you are putting words in my mouth (but if I did say it, please show me).

Actually, I said it was implied. I should have been clearer. I don't think you personally imply it. I meant that in terms of this thread, that the difference is implying that we should be only concerned with male oriented games. If there is to be action, which I don't have an opinion on either way, all I am saying is there if no relevant difference exists such action should be unilateral. If there is, it should be explained, and explained well, in detail.

Society accepts this standard. You can call it a double-standard, you can call it retributions. You can call it putting balance back into the force.

Bad word choice. I didn't mean it with a negative connotation. I meant that it is simply a standard with two acceptable levels. It literally is a double-standard. I never said I disagreed with it. Or that I agreed with it. I was simply stating a fact.

I too, have lived in a society where I was the minority. The nice thing that I had, and you had, was the power to leave at the drop of a dime and return to the comforts of a situation where I was safely in the majority any time I wanted. Women don't have that power, and blacks in America don't have that power.

That depends largely on your view of choice of whether or not I had "the power to leave at the drop of a dime." Although not germane here, I brought it up, so I will say one of the reasons the situation was so enlightening was that I did not feel I could leave. Not without severe consequences at least. Sometimes it was frustrating, sometimes it was outright frightening. There were several times I feared for my safety. I will grant you that after graduation I was free to leave that situation, but I would rather vehemently argue that I would not have the quality of life I have today if I did not see it through to the end. I would ask you not to probe deeper, however.

I am also a minority all of the time, but I also decline to go into details about that. I would ask you to merely take my word on that.

I am a little confused because it sounds like you wanted me to acknowledge the fact that women can have rape fantasies but not talk about the fact that women are the vast majority of rape victims.

Nope. I have no such agenda. No agenda besides making sure that the former was considered along with the latter.

Black people may have prejudices against whites, but they are the vast majority of victims of racism.

Historically and institutionally, I would agree. On a personal level? My jury is still out. The fact that I have several black friends who agree with me that, at the very least, African-American racism towards whites (and other races) is on the rise, makes me pause on claiming that the vast majority of individual victims of racism are black. If it is still true, the ratios are definitely evening out.

Both rape and racism are vulgar displays of power, so I think the comparison is legitimate.

Okay. That's all I wanted.

[MMM]

I am not calling for any action, Tsuwabuki, so I cannot fully resolve the grey-zone I feel about woman-on-man rape except to say, rape is rape, and it is wrong.

If a man rapes a woman or a woman rapes a man, I think they deserve the same punishment, and if I implied otherwise, let me revise that here.

Because of power issues I think the dynamics of the fantasies may be different, but I can't say much more than that.

In the end it sounds like we are pretty close to the same page.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by TheLastFortnight

What I could understand until now is that people think men who play rape hentai games could start to think that it isn't "wrong" and try to satisfy their fantasies in real life, but if the player is a woman, like you said, what are you suggesting?

I'm not suggesting. I am explicitly demanding that a relevant difference be shown.

Let's take your above example. In that case, that the factor inherent in the acceptance of rape as an acceptable behavior in an individual is due to the combination of two factors: 1) the player is playing a rape game 2) the player is male, and that therefore when a female is playing a rape game, she is not at all more likely to accept rape as an acceptable behavior, AS SHOWN via accepted standards of psychiatric evaluation.