what's bad in japan?

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by blimp

who said 女性は産む機械?

I`d suggest you track down the ENTIRE speech he made. Wait, nobody bothered to publish it, but only focused on the wording of one little part to spark controversy? Sounds like the mass media alright.

I *completely* agree with what he said - although his wording choice was poor. Then again, I think older people would have had another fit if he`d used the medical term to refer to wombs, being as it was taboo in the generation he comes from.

The actual quote, by the way, is 「機械と呼ぶのは何だけど、産む機械、装置の数は決ま っているから、あとは一人ずつベストを尽くしてもらう ようにお願いするしかない」 Nowhere in that do I see him directly equating women with machines. He is referring to the actual body parts, not the whole.

ETA; He apologized many times, and I am quite happy to believe his explanation - not all women can bear children, so saying "women" would not have fit... But saying "fertile and willing wombs" is taboo... So he said the best he could come up with on the spot.

[jrocka83]

Originally Posted by JoshAussie

Is it desperation to find a husband before that age? like a rush? its like they dont care who they marry as long as they marry? well from what iv head so far anyway.. like the thing with the foreigners.. "oh !@#$ im 26 and not married.. better find a foreigner"

???



EDIT: i find myself extremely interested in Japanese relationships.. i duno why

Well, things are chaging now. But most Japanese men will not marry a girl after that age. And yes J-girls know they have a better chance with foriegners, becuase they still look so young after that age.

Most Japanese guys don't get Married untill they are in thier 30's, and they usually find girls in thier early 20's. Japan still has arranged Marriages to this day, but very rare now.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by Henbaka

I agree foreign people shouldn't try to come and say what's what.

Absolutely!
However, American women have to deal with the men from Japanese corporations and that can get tense. We sometimes encounter a dismissive attitude even when on our own turf because of the lingering sentiments that have been mentioned here, and that some Japanese businessmen expect from all women. Its a rather unpleasant hurdle for those of us who have a career because we want one, rather than being forced by circumstance to have one.
So far, I have always managed to clear that hurdle, but it is still starts of a business relationship with my being subtley insulted. I do not, however, go and tell them to correct this in their businesses. I think it is far better to teach them by example, that they should reconsider how they view women in the workplace.
By seeing that some business women do not simply mark time waiting to become a housewife, they are more likely to gradually and permanently change their attitudes, than if it is thrust upon them. And it seems to be working, because I meet fewer of those types these days.

[JoshAussie]

Originally Posted by jrocka83

Well, things are chaging now. But most Japanese men will not marry a girl after that age. And yes J-girls know they have a better chance with foriegners, becuase they still look so young after that age.

Most Japanese guys don't get Married untill they are in thier 30's, and they usually find girls in thier early 20's. Japan still has arranged Marriages to this day, but very rare now.

extremely interesting.. im fascinated, to me from what im hearing it seems to be more about Marriage and less about "Love" like its just basically what you do.. get married.. and as long as your married to someone respectable.. it doesnt matter who?

if Japanese women still look young after that age why do japanese men not want to have alot to do with them? is it because younger girls are entering there "prime"? it must be a cultural thing again yes?

for me its just weird to hear even if a woman looks good.. at 26 - 32 its just .. well shes not 20 so she wont do.. ><



thx for the replies.. i should get into Sex and Relationship Therapy.. i could listen all day.. haha.. kinda weird

[blimp]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

....The actual quote, by the way, is 「機械と呼ぶのは何だけど、産む機械、装置の数は決ま っているから、あとは一人ずつベストを尽くしてもらう ようにお願いするしかない」 Nowhere in that do I see him directly equating women with machines. He is referring to the actual body parts, not the whole....

unfortunately i couldn't find the whole speech but only the part that u quoted. i must admit that i don't remember word for word what he said, but as far as i remember he only mentioned that women should improve, but perhaps u can correct me? and not all men can produce children, do u think he would use a different word for men because of that?

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by blimp

unfortunately i couldn't find the whole speech but only the part that u quoted. i must admit that i don't remember word for word what he said, but as far as i remember he only mentioned that women should improve, but perhaps u can correct me? and not all men can produce children, do u think he would use a different word for men because of that?

Kinda reminds me of the English idiom "baby factory" though.

Its because of the percieved role of women to marry and produce families that in the U.S. one is no longer allowed to inquire about marital status on a job application. Because American men did not abandon careers to have children, only women, it is considered sexual discrimination to allow a woman's marital status to have any consideration in employment. And because you can't use it for or against women, you can't for men either. However, we both know that it in fact happens, even though it is not on paper.

[Nyororin]

I recall his speech being that no matter how hard men in the government may sit around talking about how the population should increase, and coming up with grand schemes... It all comes down to women - There is a limited number of women, and in that population there is a limited number of "baby producing units" ie. functional wombs with willing owners - so it is best we can do is to ask them to do their best for the population.

In other words, instead of old men sitting around trading theories, why not ask those who really do have the power to increase the population to do their best.

If you ignore his wording, I think what he said is very accurate, and is in fact empowering to women as he refers to them as the ones with the power, and refers to asking/begging them to do their best.

[Wasabista]

One thing that always irritates me about the quoting of all these figures is that everyone always seems to apply them to their own society`s thinking.

What is to say that women WANT to be in these positions of power? What makes you assume that women WANT to work the same levels as men? I`m on the PTA at my son`s kindergarten, and I can assure you that there isn`t a working mother there that I`ve spoken to who wouldn`t JUMP at the chance to stop working and be a SAHM. I went to a 4 year university here - I can also assure you that 9 out of 10 (probably more, really) of my female classmates listed their life plans as "Work in the job of choice for a few years until a husband is found, then quit and be a stay at home wife!" Obviously, not every woman thinks like that. There are plenty of women who do want to continue working, and rise up in the company ranks... And more often than not, companies are *happy* to accommodate them because the company actually gets tax breaks etc from the government for it. But there aren`t that many women who agree to it.
Seriously, one of our family friends is a great skilled worker, enjoys work, but doesn`t want any responsibility - just cash. So when her employer offers to promote her, she refuses, and if they still promote her she changes jobs. She`s on her 6th or 7th.
As for paternal leave - traditionally a wife goes home (to her parents`) to have a baby and stays there for the first couple of months. This also coincides with the time frame most husbands have to take their leave during. So most don`t, and either work overtime during that time (as the house it empty anyway) or do a "time save" and use that unused leave later on as part of another vacation - this time when the family is together (what we did.)

Applying western feminist ideals to Japan just doesn`t work.

Yes. Very perceptive post.

I remember teaching a class of obasans (this was 18 years ago) and explaining how women in my country had fought for the right to be salarymen. They all looked at each other and said, "why on earth would they want that?"

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I recall his speech being that no matter how hard men in the government may sit around talking about how the population should increase, and coming up with grand schemes... It all comes down to women - There is a limited number of women, and in that population there is a limited number of "baby producing units" ie. functional wombs with willing owners - so it is best we can do is to ask them to do their best for the population.

In other words, instead of old men sitting around trading theories, why not ask those who really do have the power to increase the population to do their best.

If you ignore his wording, I think what he said is very accurate, and is in fact empowering to women as he refers to them as the ones with the power, and refers to asking/begging them to do their best.

Thank you for the translation. As one of the many here who do not speak Japanese, even being able to read it didn't help get the actual meaning.

[Tsuzuki]

uhm. I go next month to Tokyo x) ehm... wel... oO .... the tread °° ... is very helpfull x)