what's bad in japan?

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by MMM

Talking to Japanese every day living in the US, literally EVERY DAY I hear about how Japanese do things better than other people. Whether it is customer service or culinary arts or electronics, I am reminded constantly how things are better in Japan... and many times (but not always) they are right.

Canadians and Americans I talk to in Japan, who normally are not so patriotic, always seem to find a way of putting themselves above Japan.
I think this is just a common way of missing your home, finding all the ways it's better than where you are.

Maybe I'm just lucky and I don't meet the ass-holes that others meet, or maybe I'm blind to peoples real opinions of me and where I'm from...

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by MMM

Most foreigners who shop at H&M in Tokyo are tourists.

If you were a tourist and he didn't give you the tourist discount he would have lost his job.

I am sorry, but this story sounds quite silly. You insisted he charge you more because you are a temporary resident, rather than a tourist? I would have taken the discount and ran.

This kind of self-righteousness is what gives gaijin a bad name in Japan. Oh, good for you! You made a fuss in an essentially homogeneous country to show you were an extreme minority in order to pay MORE money for a item because you have blue eyes. The foreigners who will now have to show their visas at H&M to get that discount now surely thank you.

When you have lived there 10 years and get this treatment at stores you regularly frequent, then this complaint is legit. But when you go to the Disneyland of retail fashion and complain about being mistaken for a tourist, I feel no sympathy.

I'm not asking for sympathy, nor do I blame the guy himself, as I said.

I wish you could hear your own argument. You're telling me that in order to avoid an outward racial profiling that I should just avoid certain stores?
What you call self-righteousness, I look at as being a martyr to a cause. If no one ever calls out a problem then it doesn't get fixed. I could care less if tourists would have to show their visas, that's a necessary inconvenience to benefit from a discount IMO, but I digress on that.

The fact of the matter is that there shouldn't be a kind of "Hey, he's not Japanese, so I'll give him a discount." If there was a kind of stipulation where if I wanted to earn a discount from a particular store then all I had to do was show my visa, then I'd be all for it, at least for tourists to benefit from. But to automatically give it to me is what bothers me.
Do they look at other East Asians who are non Japanese and guess whether they're Japanese or not if they can't tell, and then determine the discount? How does that system work?

It all goes back to this "It's their society so you play by their rules" idea that many of those who I'd consider elitists have about Japan. Well you know what? I fvcking pay taxes to this country and I'm a part of it too. I shouldn't be treated differently based on my looks.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by RealJames

I've never once met a Japanese person who believes Japanese people are better than others, in fact Japanese people have massive insecurity issues and admiration issues towards the US.

I will also say that you`re a bit off here... Outward statements and internal beliefs are totally different worlds, really.

Most Japanese I know seem to be caught between a media / education culture that tells them at every turn that they are an inferior country - that everyone should admire and try to emulate "western" ideals... and being patriotic.

Because of issues to do with the war, patriotism is looked down upon. But people love their home, their culture, their families... And naturally this translates into patriotism. The Japanese "better than everyone else" seems to fall more into the same lines as an American believing that the US is the greatest country on Earth. The difference is, if people in Japan say it outright there is a tendency to be bashed for it...

Love of home and country itself isn`t a bad thing.

[bELyVIS]

Originally Posted by RealJames

Canadians and Americans I talk to in Japan, who normally are not so patriotic, always seem to find a way of putting themselves above Japan.
I think this is just a common way of missing your home, finding all the ways it's better than where you are.

Maybe I'm just lucky and I don't meet the ass-holes that others meet, or maybe I'm blind to peoples real opinions of me and where I'm from...

I don't feel that the Japanese acting this way were assholes, just being who they were taught to be. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country unless it affects your ability to judge. Americans are more accepting of foreigners because we are made up of foreigners. But that doesn't stop racism here totally.
Japanese are wonderful people who could teach us all better cooperation. I hold no grudges against the people I worked with as people, but of course I am happy that they saw that sending us home early was a very bad mistake. Japan was our home and we left many friends there as well as a very decent income. That was what was sad to us.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I wish you could hear your own argument. You're telling me that in order to avoid an outward racial profiling that I should just avoid certain stores?

That's not what I said at all. You went to a store frequented by tourists and were mad you were mistaken for a tourist.

Big deal.

That's like wearing a Yomiuri Giants cap and being mistaken for a Yomiuri Giants fan.

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

What you call self-righteousness, I look at as being a martyr to a cause. If no one ever calls out a problem then it doesn't get fixed. I could care less if tourists would have to show their visas, that's a necessary inconvenience to benefit from a discount IMO, but I digress on that.

I think you are starting to reach that point in your stay in Japan where little things that happen in Japan start to get on your nerves.

This is very common, and being aware of it can help you from becoming "that guy".

Look at what you are saying: "I am mad because I wasn't mistaken for a resident of Japan." The majority of Caucasians in Tokyo are not permanent residents. And then you go to a place specifically frequented by tourists in Tokyo, and complain for being mistaken for a tourist. What cause are you being a martyr for?

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

The fact of the matter is that there shouldn't be a kind of "Hey, he's not Japanese, so I'll give him a discount." If there was a kind of stipulation where if I wanted to earn a discount from a particular store then all I had to do was show my visa, then I'd be all for it, at least for tourists to benefit from. But to automatically give it to me is what bothers me.
Do they look at other East Asians who are non Japanese and guess whether they're Japanese or not if they can't tell, and then determine the discount? How does that system work?

You are applying Western values and sensibilities to an essentially homogeneous Asian society. You aren't the first, and won't be the last. I would say, just be aware you are doing it, as it will help you keep your sanity.

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

It all goes back to this "It's their society so you play by their rules" idea that many of those who I'd consider elitists have about Japan. Well you know what? I fvcking pay taxes to this country and I'm a part of it too. I shouldn't be treated differently based on my looks.

Please don't be insulted when I tell you I have heard dozens of people say this over the years. Again, this is a part of a very common syndrome that happens with people making extended stays in Japan. I don't think it's "culture shock" but more like "culture frustration". The novelty of living in Japan is starting to wear off, and now the things that you didn't notice a couple months ago because everything was so fresh and new are starting to get noticeable. It is normal. Most people are never aware of their own "lashing back". Being aware of it can help you keep yourself mentally above water.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by MMM

Most foreigners who shop at H&M in Tokyo are tourists.

If you were a tourist and he didn't give you the tourist discount he would have lost his job.

I am sorry, but this story sounds quite silly. You insisted he charge you more because you are a temporary resident, rather than a tourist? I would have taken the discount and ran.

This kind of self-righteousness is what gives gaijin a bad name in Japan. Oh, good for you! You made a fuss in an essentially homogeneous country to show you were an extreme minority in order to pay MORE money for a item because you have blue eyes. The foreigners who will now have to show their visas at H&M to get that discount now surely thank you.

When you have lived there 10 years and get this treatment at stores you regularly frequent, then this complaint is legit. But when you go to the Disneyland of retail fashion and complain about being mistaken for a tourist, I feel no sympathy.

regarding being taken for a tourist when actually studyingin JAPAN. WINGS"How was the shop person supposed to know the difference between you or a tourist. Were you dressed diffferently. Are they supposed to be psychic?


You have strange expectations surely.

[JamboP26]

I can see where Wings is coming from. But I don't think it would annoy me if people thought I was a tourist. I would simply correct them of their error. To be honest, I can't be bothered reading through sh**loads of text to get every small point, but if you are unhappy with any assumptions made because of colour, creed etc., just calmly correct the person. If you get a tourist discount when you don't comply to regulations of it, you've got 2 choices. Either take it, break the law, & never visit the shop again, or be honest & correct the shop worker of his error

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by MMM

That's not what I said at all. You went to a store frequented by tourists and were mad you were mistaken for a tourist.

Big deal.

That's like wearing a Yomiuri Giants cap and being mistaken for a Yomiuri Giants fan.

It is what you said. When there were as many Japanese in there as there were foreigners, the process of elimination was solely based on looks.
Wearing a baseball cap that directly projects a certain image (such as being a fan of baseball) and just being a normal person who walks into a store are two different things.

Originally Posted by MMM

Look at what you are saying: "I am mad because I wasn't mistaken for a resident of Japan." The majority of Caucasians in Tokyo are not permanent residents. And then you go to a place specifically frequented by tourists in Tokyo, and complain for being mistaken for a tourist. What cause are you being a martyr for?

I'm not mad that I wasn't mistaken for a resident, I'm mad that I was mistaken for a tourist. There's a difference in that wording. In my reasoning, this mistake was based purely on an assumption.
The problem is people keep bringing up these "majority goes" type attitudes, such as "you're in a homogenous country" or "the majority of caucasians are tourists."
I'm not fighting for rights, I think most of us would just like some kind of acceptance. I know I haven't been here that long, and believe me, I'm not already jaded, but it's stuff like this that doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by MMM

You are applying Western values and sensibilities to an essentially homogeneous Asian society. You aren't the first, and won't be the last. I would say, just be aware you are doing it, as it will help you keep your sanity.

I didn't know racial profiling was a western only value. I don't really know what kind if work you're in, but next time offer one of your minority clients a discount and tell them it's because it's the holidays and that they probably need it more than you. See how they react to that.

Originally Posted by MMM

Please don't be insulted when I tell you I have heard dozens of people say this over the years. Again, this is a part of a very common syndrome that happens with people making extended stays in Japan. I don't think it's "culture shock" but more like "culture frustration". The novelty of living in Japan is starting to wear off, and now the things that you didn't notice a couple months ago because everything was so fresh and new are starting to get noticeable. It is normal. Most people are never aware of their own "lashing back". Being aware of it can help you keep yourself mentally above water.

I'm not insulted because that's not what's going on here. I've met people like those you're describing. But I don't think my one legitimate complaint warrants me to be lumped in the "Jaded 'Nam Vets" category.

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

regarding being taken for a tourist when actually studyingin JAPAN. WINGS"How was the shop person supposed to know the difference between you or a tourist. Were you dressed diffferently. Are they supposed to be psychic?


You have strange expectations surely.

This holiday, give a bucket of KFC to the first black person you see and a space heater to the first white person you see for their trailer.

Wait, you mean all black people don't eat chicken and all white people don't live in trailers?

I guess if that's the way you see things.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

It is what you said. When there were as many Japanese in there as there were foreigners, the process of elimination was solely based on looks.
Wearing a baseball cap that directly projects a certain image (such as being a fan of baseball) and just being a normal person who walks into a store are two different things.

Welcome to life as a foreigner in Japan. 99.999% of blue eyed people in Japan are not Japanese. That's not racism, that's reality.

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I'm not mad that I wasn't mistaken for a resident, I'm mad that I was mistaken for a tourist. There's a difference in that wording. In my reasoning, this mistake was based purely on an assumption.
The problem is people keep bringing up these "majority goes" type attitudes, such as "you're in a homogenous country" or "the majority of caucasians are tourists."
I'm not fighting for rights, I think most of us would just like some kind of acceptance. I know I haven't been here that long, and believe me, I'm not already jaded, but it's stuff like this that doesn't make sense.

I think your argument falls flat here, because you make it sound as if being a tourist is a bad thing. You've never been a tourist before? Are Japanese anti-tourist?

I remember one night in Osaka missing the last train, and walking into a friendly and quaint looking bar. I was surprised when the bartender started speaking French to me. I responded in Japanese, why would he think I was French. He pointed to the walls and I saw French flags and pictures of Paris. "This is a French-themed bar, so I thought you might be French." We both laughed, and that was the end of it.

If I hated French or something like that, maybe I should have been offended, but it truly was a honest and harmless misunderstanding.

I think this is the same boat you are in.

Were you rejected, given worse service, or treated poorly because of your "tourist" status?

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I didn't know racial profiling was a western only value. I don't really know what kind if work you're in, but next time offer one of your minority clients a discount and tell them it's because it's the holidays and that they probably need it more than you. See how they react to that.

I do not understand what you are talking about. Were you offered the discount because you looked poor because you are white?

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I'm not insulted because that's not what's going on here. I've met people like those you're describing. But I don't think my one legitimate complaint warrants me to be lumped in the "Jaded 'Nam Vets" category.

Just be aware you are starting to sound like one of those people I am describing.

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

This holiday, give a bucket of KFC to the first black person you see and a space heater to the first white person you see for their trailer.

Wait, you mean all black people don't eat chicken and all white people don't live in trailers?

I guess if that's the way you see things.

Those are racist stereotypes.

If 99% of the white people in Tokyo are tourists, and someone asks if you are a tourist, that isn't being racist, that is making a pretty safe assumption based on your race.

Is it racist to ask a Japanese man how many bowls of rice he eats a day?