Women's Rights

[YoshimiTheEthereal]

I was really curious about how women's rights have progressed in Japan and how they are treated now. I read in a book from the '80s that they only get paid 60% of what a man does for the same job and that they are also treated somewhat badly, such as having to leave the room when her husband's coworker visits and similar things. Can anyone tell me more?

[MMM]

You are mixing up "women's rights" and cultural traditions. And this is a larger topic than I can even scratch the surface of here.

Japan is often called a patriarchal society, but in reality I have found that men wear the titles, and women carry the power. Oftentimes in homes the husband gives his paycheck to his wife, and she pays the bills and gives him an allowence for lunch, etc. Men often live at home until they get married, so wives can sort of take the role of "mom" sometimes. Japan is not a society like some, where a woman would be beaten for speaking her mind, and if you watch the movies, it is women who can tease and make fun of the mafia boss or samurai, when his male subordinates cannot.

It is a good question, but also a complex one. But I think if you aksed Japanese women if they really felt oppressed in Japanese society, the number of yes answers would be lower than you think. Remember geisha, hostesses and waitresses are PAID to be submissive.

[imiss]

Originally Posted by YoshimiTheEthereal

...I read in a book from the '80s that...

Well, theres your problem, that was 20+ years ago maybe

[Paul11]

Originally Posted by imiss

Well, theres your problem, that was 20+ years ago maybe

It's the same now. Japan changes slower than the brutally swift change demanded by Americans and Europeans.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Paul11

It's the same now. Japan changes slower than the brutally swift change demanded by Americans and Europeans.

Really? Subjected to being just stay-at-home moms, more Japanese women choose to not be moms at all. Calling a women "Christmas Cake" (unmarried by age 25) was common in the 80s. Now most people under 40 don't know what that term means. Hence the "greying of Japan" as families go from an average of +2.5 children (growing society) to -1.5 (shrinking society). The population in Japan peaked in 2006, and a lot of the reason for that is 1) economy but also 2) women flexing their rights.

[Paul11]

Originally Posted by MMM

Really? Subjected to being just stay-at-home moms, more Japanese women choose to not be moms at all. Calling a women "Christmas Cake" (unmarried by age 25) was common in the 80s. Now most people under 40 don't know what that term means. Hence the "greying of Japan" as families go from an average of +2.5 children (growing society) to -1.5 (shrinking society). The population in Japan peaked in 2006, and a lot of the reason for that is 1) economy but also 2) women flexing their rights.

I recognize the changes. But, in Japan those changes took longer than in the U.S., for example, even though people were aware of those new ideas. IN the U.S. (my/our point of reference) those who demand change want it now, with no regard for the dificulties or negative results of the changes. Newness and shucking the husk of the past is part of our culture. Japan usually takes those changes slower and thus mitigate the upheaval. Just look at all the damage done to women by the forceful "we want it now" change brought by the old women's lib movement. (which i don't want to confuse wsith women's rights) But of course those things are happening.

[samurai007]

Originally Posted by MMM

Really? Subjected to being just stay-at-home moms, more Japanese women choose to not be moms at all. Calling a women "Christmas Cake" (unmarried by age 25) was common in the 80s. Now most people under 40 don't know what that term means. Hence the "greying of Japan" as families go from an average of +2.5 children (growing society) to -1.5 (shrinking society). The population in Japan peaked in 2006, and a lot of the reason for that is 1) economy but also 2) women flexing their rights.

I heard that saying from some of my female Japanese friends. (For those that don't know, it's referring to the fact that the Japanese eat Christmas cakes on Dec 25, and any unsold cakes on the 26th are suddenly rather worthless and deeply discounted, same as unsold Christmas trees would be in the US.) However, those women also mentioned some sayings they have for Japanese men, such as the "Gokiburi husband" ("Men are like cockroaches... you don't want either of them in your kitchen"), which highlights just how little the Japanese men are taught about cooking, laundry, and other things. As you said, many tend to live at home until they get married, so they never have to learn to fend for themselves. A lot of Japanese men I knew told me that they had never made anything more complicated than toast or instant ramen in their lives. If the wife was ever away for any reason, they'd eat out at a restaurant. (It's like the Carl's Jr commercial's motto... "If it weren't for us, some guys would starve.")

[Paul11]

Originally Posted by samurai007

I heard that saying from some of my female Japanese friends. (For those that don't know, it's referring to the fact that the Japanese eat Christmas cakes on Dec 25, and any unsold cakes on the 26th are suddenly rather worthless and deeply discounted, same as unsold Christmas trees would be in the US.) However, those women also mentioned some sayings they have for Japanese men, such as the "Gokiburi husband" ("Men are like cockroaches... you don't want either of them in your kitchen"), which highlights just how little the Japanese men are taught about cooking, laundry, and other things. As you said, many tend to live at home until they get married, so they never have to learn to fend for themselves. A lot of Japanese men I knew told me that they had never made anything more complicated than toast or instant ramen in their lives. If the wife was ever away for any reason, they'd eat out at a restaurant. (It's like the Carl's Jr commercial's motto... "If it weren't for us, some guys would starve.")

Is that about rights, or a cultural division of labor?

[samurai007]

Originally Posted by Paul11

Is that about rights, or a cultural division of labor?

Cultural division. Just pointing out that while Japanese women are culturally often responsible for and expected to do (or not to do) certain things, so too are the Japanese men.

[Paul11]

Originally Posted by samurai007

Cultural division. Just pointing out that while Japanese women are culturally often responsible for and expected to do (or not to do) certain things, so too are the Japanese men.

Good point.