I don't want to live in Japan.

[samurai007]

Originally Posted by Seanus

Samurai was right on the money. The glass can be half empty as well as half full but Japan is largely a positive experience if you go in with an open mind. The food alone was a major highlight of my stay. I went there 8 years ago and was taken by the cute girls on the go. There was just so much to discover if your eyes were always open. I loved discovering sth new going down some alleyways. Some of the best okonomiyaki joints can be found that way. The ubiquitous vending machines were another boon.

Right. Just to make sure I'm clear, I overall loved my time in Japan, it was one of the best times in my life. But after 2 years, I was ready to come home, and despite very fond memories, I haven't been back in the past 10 years (though I'd like to go back for a visit, if I had more time and money...) I'm just trying to explain that dichotomy... "I loved it but I was ready to leave it" sometimes doesn't make sense to people.

[Seanus]

It makes sense to me. 2 years is a good amount of time to spend there if you go as a teacher. I'd like to have visited Hokkaido and Okinawa but I saw the main cities and lived in Hiroshima which had its plusses being the seafood capital of Japan, maybe of Asia.

[PocketRockets285]

What a great thread! Reminds me of a conversation I had last year. My friend from Finland (100% otaku) was raving about Japan with stars in her eyes, like she always does, saying "ah, it would be sooo great to live in Japan, I'm definitely going to live there someday"... and all the while she was talking, I was thinking "you haven't even visited the place and you already wish to live there?"

[Seanus]

This is what keeps many people interested in life. A similar reason to why people read books, they can imagine and conceptualise, give themselves a framework to operate from. There is perhaps no better country for doing this than Nihon.

[TexMex]

Hi..I also see alot of people say..I want to live in Japan..but most of those are kids or students and not working adults like you and me..I love Japan but also visit for a month every year..I have been there 5 times. Why do I go there, because I love the culture, food, and it is a safe country for a single female like me..I would like to teach there but the pay for teaching English is not that good. Usually I see something like 250, 000 yen and that is far less than I make here. I do not know if I could actually live there but I look at the behavior of the people and the cleanliness of the cities..We do not find anything like that here in the US

[wasabijuice]

I'm paraphrasing the OP here

Originally Posted by wasabijuice

I lived in USA for just over 30 years, and go back to visit almost every year. I gotta tell you, life is a lot easier and my standard of living is a lot higher in Japan . I loved my time in USA but will be happy not living long-term there again.

Why do I write this?

I have read dozens, maybe 100 different posts from people that say "I want to live in USA" without ever having visited. I immediately do a facepalm when I see this, and to be honest it is hard to take most of them seriously. Now the "I would love to visit USA someday" threads much more seriously because those folks tend to be more realistic.

I titled this thread this way to get your attention, and I know I could live in USA again if I had to or if I wanted. There are tons of things I loved about life in Japan, but there are also things I am not ready to sacrifice for the rest of my life just to be able to live in USA (centralized heating, NY-style pizza, Christmas, etc.) Sorry but we have all these things in Japan too!!

I don't disparage anyone that does live in USA and has or will for a long time. It's a great experience, but for now I am going to throw another log on my wood stove, marinade a chicken and turn on some music.

I just substituted USA for Japan and this is how it goes, for me Japan is like the USA without the 3rd world cities, methamphetamine/crack heads, constant wailing of police sirens, airplanes, delicious yet oh so unhealthy food, scary and I mean scary rednecks armed to the teeth.

Life in Japan is more civilized in a way. In the US the scenary may be better on a daily basis, but here life is better on a daily basis.

[GTJ]

Originally Posted by wasabijuice

Life in Japan is more civilized in a way. In the US the scenary may be better on a daily basis, but here life is better on a daily basis.

I might have to agree that the daily life is better. People always ask me "OMG OMG HOW'S JAPAN", and I always answer the same way:

"There are three things they have here that are better: cell phones, vending machines, and customer service."

And boy are they better. Thousands of times over. To the point that I actually get ticked off if I have to wait in a line for service in America for more than 20 seconds. I'm spoiled.

Didn't feel like reading through 11 pages, but I read the first few and the last few, and I have to agree largely. Japan is a great place to be, certainly, but it has its flaws just like any other country, as does my own (America). It's hard to notice at first, but Japan's society really is crumbling. The birthrate is in the negative, the population is aging and dying off, social services are in the gutter, the male population is swiftly beating down the potential for future generations, rampant apathy for people's own political system prevents them from voting or even caring, thus letting the politicians and beaurocrats run wild, tearing down the country and putting one incompetent prime minister after the other in office to further destroy what was once a great nation. I could go on and on; Japan really is an anthropolgist's/sociologist's wet dream, there are just THAT many glaring problems.

But America's laundry list is certainly just as long. As would any country's be. I think the reason you hear so many people hoot and holler about living in Japan is that they're either grossly mis/uninformed, or tweenage weaboos with stars in their eyes. Nothing particularly wrong with either, and nothing a little education won't fix in both cases.

I'll be living in Japan for I think... 3 or so more years. 4, tops. Then it's back to Americaland with my lady. Heck, she's been telling me how badly she wants to get out of Japan and move to America practically since we met, and if a Japanese national is saying that, you might be able to glean something.

I love it in Japan, but I can't live here the rest of my life.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by GTJ

Didn't feel like reading through 11 pages, but I read the first few and the last few, and I have to agree largely. Japan is a great place to be, certainly, but it has its flaws just like any other country, as does my own (America). It's hard to notice at first, but Japan's society really is crumbling. The birthrate is in the negative, the population is aging and dying off, social services are in the gutter, the male population is swiftly beating down the potential for future generations, rampant apathy for people's own political system prevents them from voting or even caring, thus letting the politicians and beaurocrats run wild, tearing down the country and putting one incompetent prime minister after the other in office to further destroy what was once a great nation. I could go on and on; Japan really is an anthropolgist's/sociologist's wet dream, there are just THAT many glaring problems.

Welcome to the "Japan has some serious issues - (insert country of choice) has it`s problems too, but they`re not THAT bad." stage! Congratulations! You`ve hit one of the incredibly stereotypical stages of "Attitudes toward Japan". You have two paths to choose from - the one becoming more and more negative and bitter toward Japan, or the one that actually looks deeper and comes to see the underlying reasons and attitudes - and can see that not all is as meets the eye. The choice is yours!!

To be a bit more serious though - a lot of people reach that point. They can now see the problems that were formerly hidden beyond a barrier of language and cultural differences... And because the problems suddenly seem to leap out, they seem much much larger, more dire, and more shocking than the reality. Add the fact that the rest of the information still lingers behind those cultural and language barriers, and a lot of people end up becoming very bitter toward Japan - "Why can`t they see how stupid they`re being?!?! This would never happen in (insert home country)."
As a long term resident, it can become very frustrating because the newly minted "activists" end up screaming and whining about the wrong things. It`s really sort of a case of barking up the wrong tree - and pulling attention from the places that really need it. (Not to mention making it harder to get people to take long term residents seriously, as the majority "get" enough to be annoying but not enough to be productive.)

But America's laundry list is certainly just as long. As would any country's be. I think the reason you hear so many people hoot and holler about living in Japan is that they're either grossly mis/uninformed, or tweenage weaboos with stars in their eyes. Nothing particularly wrong with either, and nothing a little education won't fix in both cases.

I'll be living in Japan for I think... 3 or so more years. 4, tops. Then it's back to Americaland with my lady. Heck, she's been telling me how badly she wants to get out of Japan and move to America practically since we met, and if a Japanese national is saying that, you might be able to glean something.

Please allow me to ask - how much experience does your girlfriend have with living abroad?
It goes both ways. If she has actually LIVED outside of Japan for a few years - fine - but if her experiences with the US are limited to trips to Hawaii and an all inclusive tour of New York... Well, it`s no different than those tweens with stars in their eyes. There is a whole culture built around romanticizing the US to the OL range. Their dreams are a trip to Hawaii, a "romantic" international boyfriend, jetting back and forth between the US and Japan, and some oh so cute "half" kids. Reality of life abroad comes very thin in their circles.

On either side, it`s usually those who express the biggest desire to live in the US/Japan who have the most trouble adjusting if given the opportunity. I don`t want to be overly negative, just realistic... But I`ve translated for a number of divorce cases between Japanese and Americans. And the one thing that was pretty uniform between all of them with the husband still in the US - the wife was thrilled and wanted to move out of Japan to the US where it was so cool... And then reality set in, and things fell apart.

A strong desire to live in another country you see as "better" even if you`ve never been there or know very little about real life is usually a sign of wanting to escape personal problems. Unfortunately, they usually tag right along and are often amplified by the stresses of life outside your comfort zone.

[GTJ]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Welcome to the "Japan has some serious issues - (insert country of choice) has it`s problems too, but they`re not THAT bad." stage! Congratulations! You`ve hit one of the incredibly stereotypical stages of "Attitudes toward Japan". You have two paths to choose from - the one becoming more and more negative and bitter toward Japan, or the one that actually looks deeper and comes to see the underlying reasons and attitudes - and can see that not all is as meets the eye. The choice is yours!!

Actually... I passed this phase a long time ago. When I first got to Japan, about three months in I started getting really angry and bitter about everything. Little things, too, like how nobody would sit next to me on the bus or train. Things that have gone away, and things I've learned to accept. I'm no longer angry about Japan's social problems, but that doesn't make me unaware of them. As an anthropologist I'm ever-conscious and ever-curious about them, and yes, there's a lot that would potentially piss me off if I didn't mindfully ask myself if being pissed off would actually solve anything. Which it doesn't. So I'm not.

PS: That came off a little on the sardonic side. I'm sure I'm wrong but I just wanted to point it out

"Why can`t they see how stupid they`re being?!?! This would never happen in (insert home country)."

Well... no matter how hard I try to be objective, I still do see a severe lack of what we call "common sense" in Japan. I'm up for discussion on the matter, because I feel bad every time I think it.

Please allow me to ask - how much experience does your girlfriend have with living abroad?
It goes both ways. If she has actually LIVED outside of Japan for a few years - fine - but if her experiences with the US are limited to trips to Hawaii and an all inclusive tour of New York... Well, it`s no different than those tweens with stars in their eyes. There is a whole culture built around romanticizing the US to the OL range. Their dreams are a trip to Hawaii, a "romantic" international boyfriend, jetting back and forth between the US and Japan, and some oh so cute "half" kids. Reality of life abroad comes very thin in their circles.

Yeah, I know... thing is, she's never been to America. She's travelled to other countries and lived in Australia and Fiji for a month each, but no more than that. So you mentioning this did bring this fact back to mind. She's been talking about it more lately, so this morning when we had a chat I mentioned to her that we should take several trips there before we make that desicion, and stay for more than just a week or two. It's tough for her to get time off of work, but hey, I'm sure we can swing it somehow.

Yeah, I'm fully aware of that glittery-eyed dream they have of it, too. My girlfriend is a pretty realistic girl who's had to work damn hard for everything she's got, though, so I think it'll be okay. She's got her head on straight, but we do need to give her a taste of American life first.

On either side, it`s usually those who express the biggest desire to live in the US/Japan who have the most trouble adjusting if given the opportunity. I don`t want to be overly negative, just realistic... But I`ve translated for a number of divorce cases between Japanese and Americans. And the one thing that was pretty uniform between all of them with the husband still in the US - the wife was thrilled and wanted to move out of Japan to the US where it was so cool... And then reality set in, and things fell apart.

Yeah, I've heard of this thing called the "golden handcuffs". You come to Japan, maybe teach some English, meet a nice Japanese lady. Soon enough you're married, stuck in a dead-end English teaching job, you can't learn Japanese because you repeat "this is an apple" to middle schoolers all day, your wife barely speaks English and doesn't wanna move to your home country, and so on. This was related to me by a fellow designer who was much more entrenched in his career in Japan than he'd like.

Sounds crummy, but it's definitely something to be mindful of.

My basic mindset is that every country has it's ups and downs. For me, Japan has enough ups to outweigh the downs. I can't see myself spending the rest of my life in Japan, but I'm positive it's where I want to spend at least a portion of it.

edit: we have REALLY long posts...

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by GTJ

PS: That came off a little on the sardonic side. I'm sure I'm wrong but I just wanted to point it out

It was a bit sardonic, I suppose, but not so much directed specifically at you. Just pent up frustration at dealing with far too many people who really are stuck at the stereotype stage. That tends to get to me much much more than what most people talk about as huge problems with Japan.

Well... no matter how hard I try to be objective, I still do see a severe lack of what we call "common sense" in Japan. I'm up for discussion on the matter, because I feel bad every time I think it.

Japan isn`t perfect, and I certainly won`t be one to say it is - but in a lot of cases it is honestly comparing apples to oranges. What is common sense in system A may not be so in system B. You talk a lot about people not voting, not putting a good pm in... But the thing is, people don`t elect the pm. They don`t elect any of the higher officials. People working in Tokyo (or a large majority of the 20 to 40 set) are transient workers - registered as residents somewhere else in the country. And as people elect the bottom of the scale, there is a huge conflict of interests between what is good for the country and what is actually good for that area. In the case of the "has roots elsewhere" resident, it`s a hard call to make when they are away from home. The best town official for the job may be the guy who supports the worst guy above. Not to mention that the pm himself ends up having little power and is overridden left and right, often just to spite him, so the media has a field day.
People are active in politics when the media throws a fit, but the problem is the media will throw a fit and get people worked up until they don`t see the actual issue - happens with the US too, but because of the difference in systems this will tear down any sort of progress that was actually made or going to be made. My favorite example is the "baby-making machines" quote, which is worth a completely other post of it`s own.

Yeah, I know... thing is, she's never been to America. She's travelled to other countries and lived in Australia and Fiji for a month each, but no more than that. So you mentioning this did bring this fact back to mind. She's been talking about it more lately, so this morning when we had a chat I mentioned to her that we should take several trips there before we make that desicion, and stay for more than just a week or two. It's tough for her to get time off of work, but hey, I'm sure we can swing it somehow.

I would definitely make sure she knows what she is getting into long before there is any serious commitment happening. A month is still a vacation. I would say anything less than 6 months in one place is just scraping the surface. Her feelings may change quite a bit when she has 3 or 4 months behind her and realizes that there is no going back... Ever. 2 years also seems to be a huge turning point. The fantasy fades away, and the relationship is no longer new enough to override the stress with love.

edit: we have REALLY long posts...

And pms. :P Still waiting for a reply, by the way...