外国人

[GTJ]

So, I'm curious. How do we feel about the word 外国人? In America, I only heard the word "foreigner" when referring to politics or immigration; we usually call people by their nationality.

Is calling anybody who isn't Japanese a "foreigner" ignorant? Has anyone noticed how the Japanese call people 外国人 even when they're in the 外国人's country? I also see the word tend to be psychologically lumped together with "English", so when someone mentions "外国人" I start to see nervous reactions, like, "oh shit I can't speak English".

What are your thoughts, o fellow dwellers of this strange, strange little island?

[Hatredcopter]

外人 is the word most people seem to have a problem with, even some Japanese people themselves. 外国人 is the more "appropriate" term. I've never been really that bothered by either phrase, though, to be honest. It's not difficult to see why there is a blanket term for foreigners in Japan, because Japan is such a homogeneous country. I'd say it's more ignorant to toss around the word 'foreigner' in the US (and many parts of Europe) than it is in Japan.

[GTJ]

Originally Posted by Hatredcopter

外人 is the word most people seem to have a problem with, even some Japanese people themselves. 外国人 is the more "appropriate" term. I've never been really that bothered by either phrase, though, to be honest. It's not difficult to see why there is a blanket term for foreigners in Japan, because Japan is such a homogeneous country. I'd say it's more ignorant to toss around the word 'foreigner' in the US (and many parts of Europe) than it is in Japan.

You're absolutely right, and it is a blanket term for foreigners in Japan. The reason I bring this topic up is because I realized that this is also a blanket term, apparently, for anyone in the world who isn't Japanese. At least that's my observation. What do you think? It wouldn't shock me at all, as many Japanese are pretty globally ignorant (like Americans, only Americans at least strive (out of fear) to be politically correct!).

[trunker]

its just a word that states a fact.

like foreigner.

so the word alone shouldnt be offensive, unless youre really sensitive for some reason. in a sense just saying gaijin instead of gaikokujin, is the same thing as saying "oh look there goes a black man" as opposed to saying " there goes a man of african descent"

its the context in which its used, like adding "bloody" to foreigner that makes it offensive surely.

[GTJ]

Originally Posted by trunker

its just a word that states a fact.

like foreigner.

so the word alone shouldnt be offensive, unless youre really sensitive for some reason. in a sense just saying gaijin instead of gaikokujin, is the same thing as saying "oh look there goes a black man" as opposed to saying " there goes a man of african descent"

its the context in which its used, like adding "bloody" to foreigner that makes it offensive surely.

lol, bloody foreigners.

Actually, most foreigners (there it is again!) in Japan think gaijin is a contraction of gaikokujin. Etymologically, it isn't. Check out this wikipedia article for some more information; it's actually really interesting. As far as "gaijin" is concerned, I think it's kind of akin to the "n" word in America; we can say it, but you can't. If I'm hanging around with some foreign buddies and we call each other gaijin, it's all in good fun. But when a grumpy old man or some punk kid walks past and is muttering "gaijin this, gaijin that, *&($!@ing gaijin" (it's happened a lot), then we have a problem. When I'm sitting at a bar I frequent and the bartender (whom I know, but is often drunk himself so maybe this isn't his fault) is talking about me to new customers, calling me "the gaijin", we have a problem.

Er... sorry. I derailed my own thread. I'm not too terribly sensitive, but I've also never been a minority before, so it's tough, and easy to get offended. I'm working on it! I'm putting more effort into understanding word usage, and why Japanese people act the way they do around foreigners, rather than just getting angry about it. Well... it's a learning process!

Anyway, I agree that it states a fact. But what's wrong with saying "amerikajin" or "igilisujin"? We in the west do it, especially in news reports, on television, when introducing friends, etc. In Japan, in all of those situations, it's "gaikokujin". My focus here is that the Japanese seem to use it in reference to anybody who isn't Japanese, even if that person is in their own country, and even if the Japanese person saying it is they themselves overseas. If a Japanese person goes to Italy and walks around saying "woww look at all the gaikokujin here!" (It's happened, I have video evidence ), someone needs to get smacked.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by GTJ

So, I'm curious. How do we feel about the word 外国人? In America, I only heard the word "foreigner" when referring to politics or immigration; we usually call people by their nationality.

Is calling anybody who isn't Japanese a "foreigner" ignorant? Has anyone noticed how the Japanese call people 外国人 even when they're in the 外国人's country? I also see the word tend to be psychologically lumped together with "English", so when someone mentions "外国人" I start to see nervous reactions, like, "oh shit I can't speak English".

What are your thoughts, o fellow dwellers of this strange, strange little island?

The mistake non-Japanese make is to think 外国人 or 外人 means "foreigner". In Japanese context this isn't the case. 外国人 or 外人 means "non-Japanese". the 国 of 外国人 is Japan. Once this is understood, then the word(s) become easier to deal with.

[GTJ]

Originally Posted by MMM

The mistake non-Japanese make is to think 外国人 or 外人 means "foreigner". In Japanese context this isn't the case. 外国人 or 外人 means "non-Japanese". the 国 of 外国人 is Japan. Once this is understood, then the word(s) become easier to deal with.

Hm. Good point. Like how 国語 refers to Japanese. Hmmmmm...

So still, what's wrong with them saying イタリア人 or イギリス人? Is it too hard? I know Katakana sucks but still.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by GTJ

lol, bloody foreigners.

Actually, most foreigners (there it is again!) in Japan think gaijin is a contraction of gaikokujin. Etymologically, it isn't. Check out this wikipedia article for some more information; it's actually really interesting. As far as "gaijin" is concerned, I think it's kind of akin to the "n" word in America; we can say it, but you can't. If I'm hanging around with some foreign buddies and we call each other gaijin, it's all in good fun. But when a grumpy old man or some punk kid walks past and is muttering "gaijin this, gaijin that, *&($!@ing gaijin" (it's happened a lot), then we have a problem. When I'm sitting at a bar I frequent and the bartender (whom I know, but is often drunk himself so maybe this isn't his fault) is talking about me to new customers, calling me "the gaijin", we have a problem.

Er... sorry. I derailed my own thread. I'm not too terribly sensitive, but I've also never been a minority before, so it's tough, and easy to get offended. I'm working on it! I'm putting more effort into understanding word usage, and why Japanese people act the way they do around foreigners, rather than just getting angry about it. Well... it's a learning process!

Anyway, I agree that it states a fact. But what's wrong with saying "amerikajin" or "igilisujin"? We in the west do it, especially in news reports, on television, when introducing friends, etc. In Japan, in all of those situations, it's "gaikokujin". My focus here is that the Japanese seem to use it in reference to anybody who isn't Japanese, even if that person is in their own country, and even if the Japanese person saying it is they themselves overseas. If a Japanese person goes to Italy and walks around saying "woww look at all the gaikokujin here!" (It's happened, I have video evidence ), someone needs to get smacked.

Dude, you are a gaijin in Japan. Accept it or get on the next plane. Americans aren't that much better at distinguishing Puerto Ricans from Mexicans from Cubans...and these are countries that are less than 5000 miles away from us. Why should Japanese be able to distinguish Canadians from Americans from English...all dudes from different continents.

That would be like asking me to distinguish a Kuwati from a Saudi from an Iraqi.

Put it in that perspective I think the island country of Japan does a pretty damn good job.

[GTJ]

Originally Posted by MMM

Dude, you are a gaijin in Japan. Accept it or get on the next plane.

Come on man, don't go that route with me. Obviously I've accepted it or I wouldn't've come BACK to Japan, and I wouldn't be working so hard to stay here. I'm not making any arguments or anything, I'm just asking what you guys think.

I'm certainly not gonna turn into another Debito, but I know what "gaijin" means and where it comes from, and I know that nobody really says it in a nice, innocent way.

Either way, that's why this thread is about "gaikokujin". However, you answered my question when you told me that the 国 refers to Japan.

Americans aren't that much better at distinguishing Puerto Ricans from Mexicans from Cubans...and these are countries that are less than 5000 miles away from us. Why should Japanese be able to distinguish Canadians from Americans from English...all dudes from different continents.

That would be like asking me to distinguish a Kuwati from a Saudi from an Iraqi.

Put it in that perspective I think the island country of Japan does a pretty damn good job.

Pretty much satsifies my question.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by GTJ

Come on man, don't go that route with me. Obviously I've accepted it or I wouldn't've come BACK to Japan, and I wouldn't be working so hard to stay here. I'm not making any arguments or anything, I'm just asking what you guys think.

I'm certainly not gonna turn into another Debito, but I know what "gaijin" means and where it comes from, and I know that nobody really says it in a nice, innocent way.

Either way, that's why this thread is about "gaikokujin". However, you answered my question when you told me that the 国 refers to Japan.



Pretty much satsifies my question.

I know you are "in the trenches" so I hope my words are taken with the spirit intended. As a "veteran" sometimes I speak differently to actualists compared to those in fantasy mode. And Kudos to you for doing it.

It sounds like you got your answer...