New ID cards for foriegn citizens...

[ozkai]

Originally Posted by hippykiller1

Maybe I'll pass on trying to work in Japan. Find someplace less Orwellian.

Practice your finger printing skills before you arrive.

[smbx33]

Originally Posted by atheistwithfaith

How are you so sure HAVING a DNA database will prevent crimes? I see no reason why a criminal will not commit a crime just because he knows his DNA is on file - repeat offending is extremely common yet those criminals have their fingerprints and sometimes DNA taken after their first offense yet it never stops them.
You are again trying to use fear as a reason to take these measures into place but didn't address the fact that you have to actually know everyone on that planes intentions to know if they are going to hijack it. Your fingerprint does not give away any information about whether you are a terrorist. You are right about not calling myself an American, I don't.

When I am in another country, as much as I may fleetingly begrudge being treated with indignance on entering another country and having to give my fingerprint and retina I accept that "them's the breaks". However, in my own country where I am a citizen I should be allowed to go out my own business without being criminalized. Unless of course I commit a crime, but that's not what I am arguing.

It is worrying that you think rights and privacy are 'small things', clearly the system has broke you down.

Do you have any idea why there is such a high crime rate? Have you ever taken a course on criminology? I have, and it is my scholarly opinion that the reason why people don't commit crimes is FEAR. Morals can have a high determination but the FEAR of being caught and prosecuted prevents many people from becoming criminals. My proof look at how low the crime rate is in countries where they have strict punishments like chopping your hand off for stealing. watch them have a lower crime rates than those countries where they have more leniency more room, more probability of getting away..

Now the type of fear I want to see implanted on people is that what ever law they break they will be punished for in one way or another. People wont commit crimes without thinking about it, for a really long time. Chances are if they commit the crime, law enforcement can have a greater chance or arrest.

My question to you, is why do you care that the government has your fingerprint, retina,etc?

Do you have something to hide? Do you not trust the country that is protecting you?

[atheistwithfaith]

Originally Posted by smbx33

Do you have any idea why there is such a high crime rate? Have you ever taken a course on criminology? I have, and it is my scholarly opinion that the reason why people don't commit crimes is FEAR. Morals can have a high determination but the FEAR of being caught and prosecuted prevents many people from becoming criminals. My proof look at how low the crime rate is in countries where they have strict punishments like chopping your hand off for stealing. watch them have a lower crime rates than those countries where they have more leniency more room, more probability of getting away..

Now the type of fear I want to see implanted on people is that what ever law they break they will be punished for in one way or another. People wont commit crimes without thinking about it, for a really long time. Chances are if they commit the crime, law enforcement can have a greater chance or arrest.

My question to you, is why do you care that the government has your fingerprint, retina,etc?

Do you have something to hide? Do you not trust the country that is protecting you?

Do I trust labour or the conservatives with my fingerprint / retina / DNA... no I really don't. Even if I did have something to hide, how would giving them that information "reveal" this secret? It's not for hiding something that I am against being forced to give away that information.

After what you said, surely you are looking for harsher punishments and a less lenient judicial system - again I still do not see how merely having fingerprints and DNA will prevent people commiting crimes. Perhaps ensuring that people who are caught are actually taken to trial and those who are found guilty are actually given harsh sentences would be a better first step.

[smbx33]

Originally Posted by atheistwithfaith

Do I trust labour or the conservatives with my fingerprint / retina / DNA... no I really don't. Even if I did have something to hide, how would giving them that information "reveal" this secret? It's not for hiding something that I am against being forced to give away that information.

After what you said, surely you are looking for harsher punishments and a less lenient judicial system - again I still do not see how merely having fingerprints and DNA will prevent people commiting crimes. Perhaps ensuring that people who are caught are actually taken to trial and those who are found guilty are actually given harsh sentences would be a better first step.

how do you expect to do that when most evidence of first time offenders ISNT on file only reason why repeat offenders end in jail faster is because all of this stuff is on file already. As for punishments,with how jails are today I feel it is not an effective Permanent solution, but it helps for a few years. I'm not really concerned about punishments, I'm more concerned over criminals that haven't been caught.

How is it giving away information, you do this REGARDLESS without even knowing it. Its not like you can keep these things to yourself, and they hold no value what so ever. There should be nothing to be afraid of. At least this way, a lot of the people who have been wrongfully convicted get sent free and people who should be convicted will be. (Fyi DNA analysis saved quite a few people from getting put to death.) Do some research, this is actually for the better if it does happen. Think of the better cause and stop being selfish.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by MMM

To be clear, the fight is not about RFID but a national, United States ID that would be required to get on an airplane. State IDs could be converted to also be national IDs, and everyone would be in one database.

It is also about RFID. The standard to be imposed contains the chip. But yes, most protests are over states' rights and the Federal ID issue because it has gotten more press. The state governments are that concerned over what information will be collected as they are about infringing on their operation.

[TalnSG]

I am not in agreement with such things as fingerprints on non-governmental items such as credit cards, because I know better than to trust corporations. They are even more corrupt and fallible than most governments.

But don't plan on working for anyone's government if you are oppsed to fingerprints being on a database. I know the U.S. has been fingerprinting federal employees ever since the process was possible, but I think most other governments do also. Mine have been on file with the federal government more than 50 years and has not been a problem. If anything, it has helped at least once or twice.

[hippykiller1]

Originally Posted by jesselt

Your definition of Orwellian is so ridiculous that the only places left for you are a hand full of third world countries.

I didn't even define 'Orwellian', you're assuming too much. I've been to Japan and had to have my fingerprinted and face scan and was not happy about it.

In the US, only criminals are lumped in with that. Saying "What do you have to hide?" is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. Go ahead and go through one of them full body scans their putting in England and other major US cities. The ones were someone is allowed to see your naked body.

The "nothing to hide" argument is only for sheeple.

I have nothing to hide but governments shouldn't treat their citizens or visitors like criminals and slaves. Especially the US government seeing its a direct violation of the 4th Amendment.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This is why people pissed and moaned about the Patriot Act... This shit in the US is ILLEGAL.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by hippykiller1

Go ahead and go through one of them full body scans their putting in England and other major US cities. The ones were someone is allowed to see your naked body.

There is a rebellious side of me that is tempted to take a thin, non-reactive wire (that won't tiop metal detectors but will show up in an xray), and form it into a comment in script - like "You are rude!" Then I could tape it to my torso for the "enlightment" of the TSTAagent, if I have to submit to one of those body scanners.

But the thought of keeping them company till their anger subsides is an effective deterent to such urges.

[dirtyroboto]

Hippykiller. Your passport is not your property but that of your government, destroying or damaging the passport issued to you is in effect destroying or damaging someone else's property.
---
I am on the UK's retina database and it means I can just stroll through customs without showing my passport. While the sweaty, tired and noisy people wait to be processed like sheep I am already in a taxi.
This information will never be used to persicute me ala Kafka.

RFID is near impossible for normal people to spoof and damn hard for professional criminals. Even so, the spoof can only work if the card is not to be shown and then it requires some pretty sick hacking into very secure servers.

All identification level RFID is encripted and so cannot be used by copying it from your wallet unless the thief has the algorithm to crack it. They don't! (unless they are governments).
This type of theft is only good for magnetic strips.
I am fully RFID carded up and think it is a serious time and hassle saver. People that are scared of it are those still preaching about the dangers of microwave ovens and aluminum foil.

DNA samples would come in handy if you ended up dead by doing something stupid on a mountain, at sea or piss off wild animals/gangsters.
Your family will want to know that pile of blood and gore was their lovely son/daughter.

As for fingerprinting and photographing all visitors. BRILLIANT IDEA!
They should have implimented that in the UK before they built the channel tunnel.
But seriously. How can a country tell if all passengers arriving on a plane are who they say they are. Can they trust the country of departure to screen passengers?
It seems not, after many reported incidents of people using fake id or just abusing lax security to get on a plane to wherever.
At least in Japan the get a record of dabs and mugshot just incase that fat American customs officer was low on sugar or that XXXXX customs officer was taking a bribe.

FFS, stop moaning about this issues and look at them as a positive step in creating a more secure envronment to live in.

At least I get my stuff back if I am drunk and loose it in Tokyo thanks to my gaijin card

[sarasi]

Originally Posted by hippykiller1

I've been to Japan and had to have my fingerprinted and face scan and was not happy about it.

In the US, only criminals are lumped in with that.

Wrong, totally wrong. Almost all foreign visitors to the US are fingerprinted and have been for several years- had you completely missed that?
How can you be annoyed with Japan for fingerprinting when it was basically your government that started it? Talk to your congressman/woman before getting angry at Japan.

A couple of people have mentioned that "visitors to Japan get fingerprinted"- it is not only visitors. I have lived in Japan almost 12 years and I get fingerprinted at the airport. Even permanent residents get fingerprinted.