Got job offer in Japan, Please help to take final decision

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Hmm... I think that everyone is getting a little too focused on his experience and not thinking about how Japanese companies work.
You may have 5 years experience - but it was at another company, doing something else.

He didn't say he was doing something else. Becoming an engineer is almost as long winded as becoming a doctor. If someone mentions their experience whilst applying for a job, it's very likely that the experience is in engineering, and not only that, in a very specific field of engineering, unless of course, they're looking to change field.
So, I'd agree with you if someone had 5 years experience in something that had nothing to do with his new job, but generally this applies to all companies in all countries. What good would 5 years experience in Accounting do, if someone was applying for an IT job?!

[sarasi]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

Before judging your monthly pay you have to take into account that you are probably going to be a part-time worker limited to working 29.5 hours per week. This is usually the case with foreign workers as the company won't have to offer the additional benefits that full-time workers get. Any hours worked past the 29.5 you are scheduled for will result in overtime pay.

I am not sure where you are getting this info from, but I know a lot of foreigners who work in IT and finance in Japan, and none of them are in the situation you describe. They are all either full time contract employees or seishain. For eikaiwa teachers and ALTs the 29.5 hour work week so that the company can avoid paying into shakai hoken is common, but not in other fields in my experience.

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by sarasi

I am not sure where you are getting this info from, but I know a lot of foreigners who work in IT and finance in Japan, and none of them are in the situation you describe. They are all either full time contract employees or seishain. For eikaiwa teachers and ALTs the 29.5 hour work week so that the company can avoid paying into shakai hoken is common, but not in other fields in my experience.

I'm guessing the hours from the monthly pay, Japanese law states that foreigners must be paid the same as a Japanese working for the same position. A Japanese engineer working full-time for a reputable company is going to make much more than 200k yen per month. A part-time position will pay in the neighborhood of what the OP has indicated.

More and more companies are saving money by hiring part-time staff, or subcontracting through temp agencies, entry-level, full-time positions are becoming more and more scarce.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by noodle

He didn't say he was doing something else. Becoming an engineer is almost as long winded as becoming a doctor. If someone mentions their experience whilst applying for a job, it's very likely that the experience is in engineering, and not only that, in a very specific field of engineering, unless of course, they're looking to change field.
So, I'd agree with you if someone had 5 years experience in something that had nothing to do with his new job, but generally this applies to all companies in all countries. What good would 5 years experience in Accounting do, if someone was applying for an IT job?!

No, he has 5 years of experience doing something else. He has NOT been working on the same project and in the same system as the new company he will be entering. This DOES make a difference. I don`t know how it is outside of Japan, but he WOULD be starting at the bottom in the new company because he has NOT been working on the same thing and has not been working within their system. I know he meant he had 5 years of engineer experience - but that is not what matters. Unless the company recruited him because he was working with them on a project or on the exact same system/machinery/etc - he will start at the same place as a new engineering graduate. That is just how changing jobs in Japan works.

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

A Japanese engineer working full-time for a reputable company is going to make much more than 200k yen per month. A part-time position will pay in the neighborhood of what the OP has indicated.

I have no idea where you are getting your info, but for the past 6 years my husband and I have been doing data entry for 12 major university hiring databases and the starting average is 19万/month with 手当て and total bonuses of 2 months a year. No transportation or housing 手当て and it`s still only about 20~21万 for an engineering position. It USED to be higher. Now there are far far more applicants than positions so the entry pay is a lot lower than it used to be. (10 years ago my husband entered at 25万 with 手当て and total bonus of 4 months)

The market for engineering entry positions is NOT a good one right now.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

No, he has 5 years of experience doing something else. He has NOT been working on the same project and in the same system as the new company he will be entering. This DOES make a difference. I don`t know how it is outside of Japan, but he WOULD be starting at the bottom in the new company because he has NOT been working on the same thing and has not been working within their system. I know he meant he had 5 years of engineer experience - but that is not what matters. Unless the company recruited him because he was working with them on a project or on the exact same system/machinery/etc - he will start at the same place as a new engineering graduate. That is just how changing jobs in Japan works.

You've said to many people on this forum, "Why would a Japanese company employ a foreigner when it's far less hassle to employ someone Japanese?". If you take this into consideration, other than his 5 years experience, what has he got to offer above other Japanese IF the experience wasn't something valuable to the company? It might not be the same "system" or "project", but when someone decides to change company after 5 years, it's generally for pay, and is generally working in a VERY similar field, especially in Engineering! Most engineers specialise right out of school. Once you specialise, it's pretty much the same thing all over the world, it doesn't matter if it's Japan or Argentina!

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by noodle

You've said to many people on this forum, "Why would a Japanese company employ a foreigner when it's far less hassle to employ someone Japanese?". If you take this into consideration, other than his 5 years experience, what has he got to offer above other Japanese IF the experience wasn't something valuable to the company? It might not be the same "system" or "project", but when someone decides to change company after 5 years, it's generally for pay, and is generally working in a VERY similar field, especially in Engineering! Most engineers specialise right out of school. Once you specialise, it's pretty much the same thing all over the world, it doesn't matter if it's Japan or Argentina!

But it does matter - that is why he would be starting with low pay.
Read what I said before. You start out at the bottom of the ladder regardless of past experience. The experience may be valuable, yes, but that doesn`t mean you get to skip the steps. That is what I am trying to tell everyone who thinks he should be getting higher pay from the start.

Think of it this way - He has experience enough for them to go through the hassle of hiring him even though he is not Japanese. This means that they are hoping he will be of use to them. But even with a lot of experience, he will not be of use to them the day he starts. Pay is set on rank, and unless he goes up inside the company, his pay will start the same as that of a new recruit.
HOWEVER, because he has the experience and will (likely) be able to be of use to the new company much more quickly than that of a new graduate... He will (likely) be promoted more quickly than a new graduate.

But companies don`t hire on "potential" pay - they hire on the base pay you receive starting out. This is the 20万.

Two people, one with experience and one without, starting at the same line will have quite a gap between them after a year or so when they reevaluate for promotions and pay changes. Regardless of experience, unless you were pulled in after being lent out to another company, you start out at the bottom. You pretty much NEVER start out in a ranked position (like what someone with 5 years of in-house experience would have). That is just the way Japanese companies work.

Plus... Japanese students don`t specialize. That IS a big difference, and why this sort of thing is the norm in Japanese companies. You specialize once you`ve been hired - in school you only do a broad study. The company trains you and you specialize once hired. This means that someone coming in from another company needs to be trained regardless of experience. This is also why once past a certain age - no matter how much experience you have, and how high a post you had in your previous company, etc... You can almost never find a new position. It is assumed you will be too set in that company`s "way of doing things" to be trained in the new company`s "way of doing things".

It is just the way Japanese companies function, and it seems to lead to all sorts of shock and confusion when people with 5 or 10 years experience get a job in Japan as they expect to get the same type of pay they`d gotten before and expect to be dropped into a cushy position... But instead start in the same place in the same way as everyone else entering anew.

Japan is Japan, not "the rest of the world"...

[noodle]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying! I UNDERSTAND what you're saying, but that's with respect to JAPANESE! It's been long said that once a Japanese person starts work in one company, he stays there till he/she is retired! I'm not debating that.

Look at it this way. My soon to be sister in law got ACCEPTED for a high ranking job in Yokohama coming from Korea because of her EXPERIENCE and English level! This was in engineering! And before you ask, it wasn't one of those rare foreign engineering companies in Japan, it was a Japanese company.

I really don't think it works like you're saying. I guessed you would say the "going up in the company quicker" thing, but that's just silly! Japan would never get any half DECENT engineers if they really had to work their way up, even if it was them working their way up quicker! No one would be interested in going to Japan, especially when engineering jobs in Japan are known for their low pay, extra long hours and lack of fringe benefits and/or bonuses.

Secondly, I didn't say students specialised at engineering school. At least, that's not what I wanted to imply! Once you've graduated as an Engineer, in almost every country (i.e. Masters degree level), you're not specialised! From there, you have two options, to continue studying to specialise, or you go into a company to specialise. BUT, you are not specialised after the 5 years of University or Engineering School.

As for the "this is japan, not the rest of the world" remark, I think you should take a look at the rest of the world! Japan isn't so "unique" when it comes to hired foreigners!

EDIT; I forgot to mention. I spoke to my dad about this who asked an old French colleague of his that went to to work as a Marine Mechanical Engineer with 7 years experience. His starting pay was 750,000 JPY / Month

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by noodle

As for the "this is japan, not the rest of the world" remark, I think you should take a look at the rest of the world! Japan isn't so "unique" when it comes to hired foreigners!

EDIT; I forgot to mention. I spoke to my dad about this who asked an old French colleague of his that went to to work as a Marine Mechanical Engineer with 7 years experience. His starting pay was 750,000 JPY / Month

That is why I said;

They would be taking you on at the bottom of the ladder, which is pretty normal if you haven`t been asked to come to work for them from some other company.

and

Unless the company recruited him because he was working with them on a project or on the exact same system/machinery/etc - he will start at the same place as a new engineering graduate.

The OP doesn`t clarify if this is his situation. If they are trying to recruit him in on that type of pay - then it is low... But as I have been trying to say... If he/she is applying to jobs in Japan and got accepted to one with that level of pay it will be normal. Even for foreigners with 5 years experience.

It`s fine if you don`t want to believe me - you don`t have to. But I think people should be aware of this and know that 99% of the companies out there aren`t huge international conglomerates that will value native foreign language ability enough to pay you more than what they pay everyone else - regardless of experience. Japan is currently a hot spot for huge areas of the world looking for work, and engineering is pretty darned popular as a career choice. When you have a market flooded with Asian applicants having 10+ years of experience perfectly willing to start out at minimum pay (As is the case with a ton of Indian and Chinese engineers these days) competing with huge market of fresh grads with few job opportunities... The expat dream of hopping into a posh position getting 750,000/month is pretty much just that these days - a dream.

But feel free to hold out incredibly high hopes and ignore people who do have connections in the Japanese engineering field.

[atheistwithfaith]

Originally Posted by noodle

...

Originally Posted by Nyororin

...

Could I propose the idea that you are both 'right'.

That, depending on the company, a prospective engineer could have been employed based on his expertise and been treated to a greater starting pay - exactly because he is a foreigner and can get away with such a thing.

Or, as the OP's info and Nyororin's insight says, he will start at the relative bottom. Depending on the position and department of the company he is entering there may be much greater opportunity for promotion and bonuses than if he were starting at the 'bottom' as a grease monkey.

(for what it's worth, I read a book called 'Blue-Eyed Salaryman' a while back about a foreigner joining mitsubishi in the late 80s - v.different economical era I know - but that generally agreed with what Nyororin said)

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

That is why I said;

and

*Sigh*, my English must be terrible! I'm always misunderstood on here! He wasn't asked to move to Japan and he didn't work on the same "project/machinery etc". The reason he went to Japan was because of his wife. And all he did, was apply for jobs!

Originally Posted by Nyororin

But feel free to hold out incredibly high hopes and ignore people who do have connections in the Japanese engineering field.

Riiiiiight! I see... So, are you the type of person to not want the same or better as someone else in the same situation as you? I find it ridiculous you think it's high hopes, when plenty of other people have succeeded! If you really did have real connections, rather than just a bunch of friends or family that have told you stories here and there, you'd know that in Japan, getting the job without an exchange program from abroad is the hard part. IF you do get a job without an exchange, then you have something VERY valuable that the company want. And btw, this DOES NOT mean that the person was ASKED to come!

I'm fine with you saying that it does happen for foreigners with experience to start out at the bottom of the ladder, but to say this is what you expect is VERY misleading since I've done extensive research in this (I'm somewhat of an engineering student, and at one point, Japan was my target), AND I've spoken to people that have had the experience of getting much higher than 200k PLUS housing (like my dads colleague).