What I don't like about Japan, but won't make me leave

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

Basically, just another hate thread by an English teacher. They weren't exactly ordered to come here but did so on their own will. Yet all they do here is complain.

Frankly, if everything in Japan were the same as in Texas, I'd be leaving here.

Sashimister, you do me a great disservice by misunderstanding the intent of this thread. You also do English teachers and non-ethnic Japanese residents of Japan a great disservice by practicing the exact essentialisationism that was brought up by Ronin4Hire.

I've explained elsewhere what I love about Japan, how happy I am here, and that given the options I have in life, one of them is applying for permanent residency and staying here. Far from complain all the time about Japan, I usually spend my time gushing about it my friends and family. The majority of my time spent speaking about Japan is spent praising it.

There are plenty of things about the United States I don't like. There are even things about Texas I don't like. I explained exactly the reason this thread was made. I see threads bashing Japan, I see threads glorifying Japan. What I haven't seen is a thread saying, "Hey, Japan isn't perfect, but I still want to live here" and giving a more realistic view of what immigrants to Japan might find uncomfortable.

This isn't attacking Japan or the Japanese. It isn't attacking you. If you're insinuating that I should either love everything about Japan or leave I am afraid I don't see how your post is anything but unduly inflammatory.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

When it comes to apologies, I sort of like the Japanese side. I can apologize for something, and the apology is what matters. I don`t have to worry about going into an explanation of WHY or HOW - that isn`t the point. I`m not defending myself. I think it is something that takes time to get used to, as in the US it seems that an apology has to have an explanation in detail to try to get yourself out of the worst of trouble, deflect some of the blame, etc.

I think this is how the Japanese view American apologies. That explanation is equivocation. There doesn't seem to be an understanding that sometimes there is a desire to explain on behalf of the person apologising, and there doesn't seem to be an understanding that people can lie about being sorry.

In Japan, I can just apologize and that be the end of it. Instead of feeling like I`m being put on trial and requiring a defense, I can apologize and have that apology mean either that I`m personally sorry, that it didn`t have anything to do with me but I`m still sorry it happened... Or anywhere in between and not have to explain that.

Whereas I feel I am not given a chance to defend myself, if necessary. If I empathise, I can say "I'm sorry that happened to you," but this is not the kind of apology I was referring to. I was rather referring to the sort of apologies expected when you have been accused of making a mistake. The Japanese seem to lack an understanding that we often take for granted in the west of "innocent until proven guilty" and I believe that is what causes misunderstanding over the nature of apologies.

Again, this isn't about what is culturally "right" but rather about "feelings." I can't help feeling I'm not being taken seriously when I am expected to simply say "gomen nasai" and move on. Even if I "know" the Japanese do not see it that way, it doesn't change how I "feel."

The seating arrangements are actually wonderful compromises. In general, girls and boys group themselves and do not associate with each other if not pushed to do so. Classroom projects usually involve working with the person next to you... So it is a pretty surefire way of getting girls and boys to actually participate equally and to associate with one another. If the seating pattern is entirely random, with no heed paid to the ratio between boys and girls, there will inevitably be a boy or girl isolated inside a group of the other. This also tends to be stressful. A random seating pattern also tends to lead to a higher probability of close knit friend groups being together and inevitably being talkative when they shouldn`t.

I am aware of this. I actually sat down with one of the Japanese teachers I trusted to not get offended at my discussion and he explained exactly what you explained above. What I'd like to know is how we got to this point. Why is it that girls and boys do not mix as much as my own experiences. What is being taught to young children that makes gender the primary form of self-identification?

This is exactly what I wish to deconstruct.

It really is a fairly decent compromise in my eyes. In school even in the US, the classroom tended to be split in a similar way when seats were set - maybe not in rows, but boy-girl-boy-girl alternations or table groups with an equal number of both. In Japan it more tended to be ordered by last name, and only split by gender when that style ended up with most girls and boys being grouped together.

Huh. Mine weren't at all. Oh, sure, groups of friends would be broken up, but I certainly never saw any attempt to draw undo attention to some inherent difference between boys and girls. If I had, I would have demanded an explanation for it.

I also note that while my group of friends from high school was male heavy, we had (and still do have) a number of female members.

A view from the other side in the US - when I was in school I expressed many times an interest in eventually getting married and having a family.
I have never had any teacher, male or female, be supportive of that. I was always told that it would be wasting my life, that I didn`t *really* want to do that, etc etc etc. The other side isn`t pretty either... When I finally did say I wanted to do something else, it was very easy to discourage me as it was a "dream" pulled out of nowhere to please everyone.

Your teachers would have annoyed me to no end. I believe that getting married and having a family is absolutely fine. In fact, it's a lot harder. If you got paid a salary for being a homemaker, I believe it was calculated at six figures. I've equally argued that stay-at-home Dads are treated without the respect they deserve.

I've been calling to task educators, politicians, administrators, and peers since at least the fifth grade. I just find that in Japan, I cannot be as vocal about it without being seen as being seen exactly like Sashimaster just showed he sees me.

You never know what kind of background your student has - she may be rationalizing the fact that her family simply does not have enough money to send her on to the type of education she would need with "it would be too hard."... Something that was pretty common in my circle of high school friends, both male and female.

No, their issue wasn't that it would be too hard for her, personally, but that it was too hard for women. Any woman. My Japanese is far from perfect, but I was flabbergasted enough to spend time clarifying just what I heard to make sure that my "righteous indignation" was justified. She may have misunderstood them, that is a possibility, but what she told me was that her parents didn't believe woman were cut out to be TV producers. She may also have been lying through her teeth, but I haven't any reason to doubt her.

Food is all down to taste.

Actually neither of those have anything to do with taste, or ingredients. Natto bothers me because of how it feels. I eat plenty of fish. I just don't like things staring at me. Unfortunately, it is a lot harder for me to avoid in Japan than in other countries, because the school provides my lunch for me.

The roads... Well, I learned to drive in Japan, on Japanese roads. I find them normal and am pretty comfortable driving down those tiny urban and rural roads where it`s barely wider than the car.
I now find US roads terrifying, and the driving style absolutely violent... I suppose it all has to do with where you`re coming from and what you`re accustomed to.

I don't like driving in the US either, but for very different reasons. In this case I was specifically talking about the roads. I am certain I am going to end up in a gutter or scraping the side of another car eventually. I've also been in an accident in Japan- I was hit by a truck. I haven't had a car accident in the United States for several years. I am sure that adds to my skittishness that Japanese roads are too small to give adequate room to drive on.

No one is limited to tiny fans in summer - buy an air conditioner. A lack of central air is not a lack of A/C.

I have an air conditioner in my apartment. But there is no A/C in the buildings I work in. School and city office only have fans. Air conditioners are too cost intensive. Instead, we get cool biz where we take off ties and wear short sleeved shirts. And it matters not all.

But even putting an aircon in each classroom or office would not do the job of central cooling. I've been in both environments and central cooling is definitely nicer. Terribly expensive, but nicer.

It think the easiest to come up with would be the fake interest in my life (well, the interest is real I assume, but the reasons behind it are falsified) people seem to have. It seems that everyone wants to be my friend and visit my house, but not really out of a gesture of friendship but because it`s cool to have a non-Japanese friend and I`m convenient being as I speak Japanese... And who doesn`t want to see a real foreigner`s house?!?

And that's why I have like... three Japanese friends. It can be hard to tell who likes you for you and who just wants non-Japanese friend coolness points. I'm a person, not an accessory. Go buy an LV purse in Shinsaibashi.

Another would be the assumption that everyone is inherently peaceful and naive... And how any view opposite this is sort of glossed over.

Which is why I rarely discuss the opposite view (which is what I hold) with the Japanese. The view I often hear is "Let's just stop joining militaries, then war would stop!" As if we could convince extremist military groups, terrorists, rebel paramilitary organisations, etc to just give up because the "developed" countries disbanded their armed forces. Your husband is absolutely correct.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

There doesn't seem to be an understanding that sometimes there is a desire to explain on behalf of the person apologising, and there doesn't seem to be an understanding that people can lie about being sorry.

There is plenty of understanding that people can lie about being sorry. It`s not that apologizing is taken at face value to be sincere, but the fact that the person is apologizing at all - even if it`s an empty only-out-of-obligation apology and you have no plans whatsoever to change the way you do things - is what matters. Because the apology marks The End of the argument, the person upset is not supposed to remain upset. Sincerity is nice, but isn`t necessary. The apology is a convenient way of ending the conflict, and both sides know this. Instead of leaving the door open to make things worse, the apology is a firm stamp marking the end and letting people get on with their lives.

Again, this isn't about what is culturally "right" but rather about "feelings."

I know, and I was really just stating that I felt the other way really. I like the apology being the end-all, and being very good at explaining my way out of things it sort of forces me to be more responsible in the end as there isn`t really a way out.

This is exactly what I wish to deconstruct.

I don`t really think this is a Japan thing though... Girls tend to have more girl friends, and boys more boy friends. I haven`t seen any real difference in the mixing in Japan as compared to my experience in the US - In fact, when it comes to out of school mixing, I`d say that there seems to actually be more casual events with both genders than not. I don`t really think that back when I was in high school in the US that it was the norm for a girl to just call up a guy from school and suggest that they go out somewhere when there was no sort of attraction between the two of them... But in Japan it was and still does seem to be pretty normal. Up until high school you can spot girls and boys playing together and talking pretty equally - something that would have without a doubt shot straight to "who likes who" back in my US schooling years. But in Japan that doesn`t come into play really until high school, which may be emphasizing the line between the boys and girls.

If I had, I would have demanded an explanation for it.

There was a call for explanation if it WASN`T split up this way. Why does so-and-so get to sit by all the cute girls? Why does she get to be by all the popular guys?!? Etc.

I also note that while my group of friends from high school was male heavy, we had (and still do have) a number of female members.

Mine was pretty male heavy... I was that one girl in the guy group. But in Japan has always been pretty balanced - at least during school. As did the friend groups of most people around. In high school there is who has a crush on who pressure, so inside school itself there is a bit of tension though.

Your teachers would have annoyed me to no end. I believe that getting married and having a family is absolutely fine. In fact, it's a lot harder. If you got paid a salary for being a homemaker, I believe it was calculated at six figures. I've equally argued that stay-at-home Dads are treated without the respect they deserve.

Having both worked and been stay-at-home... I will say unequivocally that staying at home is considerably easier, and I would not consider paying myself a six figure salary by any stretch. The only thing "harder" is that you have to manage yourself, and therefore need to have a higher level of personal responsibility than you would in a supervised workplace. You have only yourself to answer to.

I`m sure this is just me, but I still sort of see the stay-at-home life as one of relative glamor. I certainly don`t sit around on the sofa eating bon-bons and watching soap operas, but I`m also not under much pressure that I`m aware of. And this is with a child who has disabilities... Sort of drives me crazy to see what I consider a normal level of personal responsibility in taking care of yourself put up on a pedestal as some amazingly difficult task - and actually feel it a bit degrading, as if I`m being falsely praised for something simple. "Oh yes, it`s such an important job! You should be paid tons for doing so much!" - for what really amounts to cleaning up after myself and making my own food. (With a kid stuck on the side there.) Kind of like overly praising a little kid for being so amazing in putting their own pants on or the like.

I've been calling to task educators, politicians, administrators, and peers since at least the fifth grade. I just find that in Japan, I cannot be as vocal about it without being seen as being seen exactly like Sashimaster just showed he sees me.

That made me raise my eyebrows a bit as what you wrote wasn`t really particularly "hate" filled at all, and you were pretty clear that it was an issue of how you personally felt about things.

No, their issue wasn't that it would be too hard for her, personally, but that it was too hard for women. Any woman.

Oh, no, I didn`t mean to imply that her parents had said something different or that she was lying. But rather that she may be accepting of that sort of thing for underlying reasons that aren`t clear - like not having enough money anyway. "Too hard for women" "men aren`t cut out for that kind of work" "it`s not a woman`s job", etc, often seem to be parroted when there is another reason lurking in the background. It isn`t personally disparaging - it may not be too hard for her personally - but it`s a way out of being pushed to "Well, if you work all your free time you can probably afford college!" or even having to admit that there are other issues to begin with.
My own husband used a "well, they don`t seem to be many openings for men these days anyway..." as a way of rationalizing when he couldn`t afford a certain certification and didn`t have parental support for it... And I have used the "Well, it would be a hard career for a woman to enter" when my "come up with something you want to be other than a wife and mother" path didn`t seem to be too viable.

Or her parents could just feel that way and could have raised her to feel that it is true.
Either way though, I think it`s best not to assume that it`s as simple as it appears under any circumstances.

I am certain I am going to end up in a gutter or scraping the side of another car eventually. I've also been in an accident in Japan- I was hit by a truck. I haven't had a car accident in the United States for several years. I am sure that adds to my skittishness that Japanese roads are too small to give adequate room to drive on.

I think that you may need to be a bit more aware of further ahead on the road when it is a narrow one, but I don`t really think they`re too small for driving. At least roads that are actually frequented - there are plenty of agriculture roads that aren`t intended to be used as actual roads between fields and the like that are pretty tight.
I`ve never been in an accident in Japan, and have never scraped my car even on tiny roads. I have been scraped in a parking lot though - but that has nothing to do with roads.

But even putting an aircon in each classroom or office would not do the job of central cooling. I've been in both environments and central cooling is definitely nicer. Terribly expensive, but nicer.

Nicer, no doubt, but would kill a school with the cost. I know someone who put in central air thinking it was the greatest thing ever... And now they never turn it on. Apparently to cool their tiny house it ended up being 200,000yen for one month in early summer.
One month. Only on during about half the day when people were at home.
Their house is something like 100m2...
I don`t even want top think about what it would cost to cool an entire school.

And that's why I have like... three Japanese friends. It can be hard to tell who likes you for you and who just wants non-Japanese friend coolness points.

I have more Japanese friends than not, but no one is welcome in my house for a very long time. And I`m much much better at detecting any silly reasons for being friendly now than I was 8+ years ago when it really annoyed me.0

Which is why I rarely discuss the opposite view (which is what I hold) with the Japanese. The view I often hear is "Let's just stop joining militaries, then war would stop!" As if we could convince extremist military groups, terrorists, rebel paramilitary organisations, etc to just give up because the "developed" countries disbanded their armed forces. Your husband is absolutely correct.

I have found that the other view is pretty normal and definitely there. It`s the presentation of it not existing that irks me. I see a lot more "war is inevitable - that isn`t reason for us to get involved" than "we should all be peaceful and happy! Love will bring world peace!" But you would think by the way media presents things that only the naive childish one exists.
If that were really the case, I`d just take it in stride... But I`d say my husband`s view is more common than the other. That`s part of why he was most upset about being quoted in that way - everyone else would think he was childishly naive.
I think there exists a view of "This is what the world expects!" so it becomes the "official" view presented - particularly to the outside of Japan.

[MMM]

Regarding apologies and the US and Japan, I have actually come around to like the "Japanese method" better than what is SOP in the US.

In Japan I was frustrated for apologizing for things that were not my fault. In American thinking, that made me a lesser person...a lower rank, "the guy that messed up", whatever. However I realized that is modus operandi in Japan.

After living in Japan for a few years I became really aware of how Americans make excuses rather than apologies for their mistakes.

If I make a reservation at a restaurant in Japan, and am not seated at the exact time of my reservation (assuming I showed up on time or a little earlier) then I am given a heart-felt apology.

If I make a reservation at a restaurant in the US, and am not seated at the exact time of my reservation (assuming I showed up on time or a little earlier) then I am given an excuse why they couldn't fulfill the promise of a table at the time they made it to me.

This made sense to me before I lived in Japan, but now it just pisses me off. I would prefer the apology over the excuses.

[SSJup81]

I'm still a newb, but I actually prefer the Japanese way of apologizing for the reasons MMM stated. For instance, a few weeks ago, I made a mistake and instead of making excuses, I just apologized for the mistake I made. I didn't know it was a mistake, though, until later on when I was informed, but I did apologize for it. It made me feel better anyway to show that I was genuinely sorry. Why being apologetic in the US is a sign of weakness is beyond me. My father's the same way and wonders why it's viewed as a sign of weakness. He apologizes when he makes mistakes too and has no problem admitting to when he's wrong (unless he genuinely feels he's right. lol)

That aside, I haven't experienced too much here, but I do like the whole politeness issue whether it be genuine or not, I prefer it.

Seems the main thing I do dislike is when I'm spoken to in attempted English when I actually asked for something in Japanese or spoke Japanese in the first place. I can't learn to communicate better if people only toss English out at me.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by MMM

This made sense to me before I lived in Japan, but now it just pisses me off. I would prefer the apology over the excuses.

I think all of you are generalising here! First of all, I'm going to assume that apologising in the US is the same as the UK, in which case, people don't always make excuses when they apologise! Secondly, I think it's a terrible idea to prefer just an apology ALL THE TIME instead of getting an explanation! The perpetrator can get away with so much if all it took was an apology to get someone off their back! With that said, sometimes, in certain situations, I do agree that an apology would be better than an explanation!

[RobinMask]

Originally Posted by noodle

I think all of you are generalising here! First of all, I'm going to assume that apologising in the US is the same as the UK, in which case, people don't always make excuses when they apologise! Secondly, I think it's a terrible idea to prefer just an apology ALL THE TIME instead of getting an explanation! The perpetrator can get away with so much if all it took was an apology to get someone off their back! With that said, sometimes, in certain situations, I do agree that an apology would be better than an explanation!

I fully agree with that actually. I think it's always nice to hear an appology, but if there's never an 'excuse' with it then somtimes it sounds insincere or as if the other person's trivialising the situation. If someone's done you an injustice I think you're fully entitled to hear why, and judge then if its a good excuse or not, rather than hear what's a probably insincere apology that means nothing on it's own. In this respect I think I'd prefer the US/UK approach to appologising over the Japanese way.

On a side note, can I ask why the Americans make such a huge deal over air-conditioning? Here in the UK our climate/weather is pretty similar in tempreture to Japan (or so I've read). We use central heating in winter, but I've never known a single English person to use air-conditioning, not even in many places of work, and we all survive fine. I find it hard to believe living in Japan is so much more difficult without air-conditioning, or is it simply a matter of beng used to luxuries and then enduring shock when that luxury is taken away from you as you move abroad?

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by noodle

I think all of you are generalising here! First of all, I'm going to assume that apologising in the US is the same as the UK, in which case, people don't always make excuses when they apologise! Secondly, I think it's a terrible idea to prefer just an apology ALL THE TIME instead of getting an explanation! The perpetrator can get away with so much if all it took was an apology to get someone off their back! With that said, sometimes, in certain situations, I do agree that an apology would be better than an explanation!

Of course using an apology to get off all the time is silly, just as never giving an explanation. That isn`t the case in Japan, and I don`t believe that anyone has said it is. If you repeat the same thing, then of course you`re going to fall under some serious scrutiny as by apologizing, you are basically saying you won`t do the same thing again. (Plus, there are things that a mere apology don`t make up for - but that isn`t what is being talked about here.)
As the one being apologized to you can ask for an explanation. I think this is a key difference.

From my exposure to people from the UK, I would say that the culture when it comes to apologies isn`t quite the same as that of the US. In the US, it really does seem to be the norm to deflect blame at all costs. Excuses seem to come out first before any expression of regret or guilt - sometimes even leading to the other person getting mad and snappy about having to take responsibility for their own wrongdoing.

Of course, not everyone is like this, and it would be silly to think that they are. But it is common enough to be a pretty accurate generalization.

In my experience, in Japan apology comes first. An explanation follows if the person in the wrong is asked for one. In the US, an explanation or excuse comes first, and then possibly an apology if the person feels they are enough in the wrong as to not divert the blame.

On a side note, can I ask why the Americans make such a huge deal over air-conditioning? Here in the UK our climate/weather is pretty similar in tempreture to Japan (or so I've read). We use central heating in winter, but I've never known a single English person to use air-conditioning, not even in many places of work, and we all survive fine. I find it hard to believe living in Japan is so much more difficult without air-conditioning, or is it simply a matter of beng used to luxuries and then enduring shock when that luxury is taken away from you as you move abroad?

I am under the impression that the UK is much cooler than Japan. Where I live, in the summer it is almost always over 30C, occasionally even approaching 40C (rare, but still)... And I live pretty much in the middle in terms of north to south.

[RobinMask]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I am under the impression that the UK is much cooler than Japan. Where I live, in the summer it is almost always over 30C, occasionally even approaching 40C (rare, but still)... And I live pretty much in the middle in terms of north to south.

Ah, thank you for explaining. I can see why in that case keeping cool would be such a priority; having experienced such tempretures in Greece for a holiday it was hard to cope with, I can certainly appreciate now why it'd be very hard to live with. I actually had no idea the weather in Japan could be between 30-40, I always assumed that level of heat was reserved only in places in the south, like Okinawa. Again, thank you for educating me on the matter

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by RobinMask

Ah, thank you for explaining. I can see why in that case keeping cool would be such a priority; having experienced such tempretures in Greece for a holiday it was hard to cope with, I can certainly appreciate now why it'd be very hard to live with. I actually had no idea the weather in Japan could be between 30-40, I always assumed that level of heat was reserved only in places in the south, like Okinawa. Again, thank you for educating me on the matter

No problem. I would love, honestly, to have UK temperatures here. It was 31 yesterday, 29 today, and it`s still May. *sigh* I`m much more comfortable in the 15~25 range for summer.

That said, it`s still not to the point where I feel the need for air conditioning. That will come later... With a vengeance.

Okinawa actually isn`t as hot as one would expect with it being in the south - the temperatures tend to be mild from what I understand, with a warm winter but not overly hot summer.
A comparison; Naha, Okinawa
And around where I live; Nagoya
Scroll down to see the average temperatures through the year.