Social Balance as a Gaijin

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I've never heard of the latter phenomena.

In my experience... you can never try too hard to fit in, in Japanese society from a Japanese perspective.

I actually spent a lot of time doing research on the topic as part of a project. We covered a lot of issues, mainly from perception of culture by gaijin and the reaction of Japanese. Of course things like using chopsticks weren't a big deal, but when discussing things like a foreigner wearing a yukatta during summer season or things of that nature, nearly 100 percent of the responses were always "That's pretty weird," "Why would they do that?" and things of that nature.

[JohnBraden]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I actually spent a lot of time doing research on the topic as part of a project. We covered a lot of issues, mainly from perception of culture by gaijin and the reaction of Japanese. Of course things like using chopsticks weren't a big deal, but when discussing things like a foreigner wearing a yukatta during summer season or things of that nature, nearly 100 percent of the responses were always "That's pretty weird," "Why would they do that?" and things of that nature.

I was stared at in 2005 when I went to an eatery near Yurakucho Eki. I was eating my meal with chopsticks. Perhaps they were surprised I knew how to use them. I was in full vacationing gaijin mode. I'm happy with that-them knowing I'm a tourist, because I am!

Then again, last October I was on the bus in Kyoto when a pale blonde American got on board with a full kimono. It just looked odd to me. I wasn't judging her and I really didn't notice anyone else on the bus staring at her either. Perhaps that is a little more common in Kyoto than Tokyo....

[tokusatsufan]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

What I've tended to notice is that most gaijin will never be truly happy with each other. On one hand, a gaijin may be ostracized by other gaijin for not trying to fit into the culture enough, or will always try to one-up newbies. Then another gaijin will get the same crap for being too into the culture. Many gaijin will judge each other and detest each other. We have examples even on this forum about not wanting to associate with other gaijin, hating other gaijin, etc.

But then you have being a gaijin from the Japanese perspective. If you take too little interest in social customs, many Japanese will just think you're an ignorant foreigner and treat you as such. If you try too hard, they'll question why you're trying to be more Japanese than them.

It's hard to find a healthy balance of where one should fall, in my opinion.

I couldn't agree more. Another factor is that there's this girl on YouTube called Sammi,and she's a white American and she's mostly right about things[I mean she's passed level 1 of the citizenship test I think],but one thing she said,or implied,was to just make friends with the white people because the Japanese won't discuss certain things. Now I don't know about that. If I did that I wouldn't have many friends! I will make friends with non-Japanese if they are around,and of course if they're cool,but if I don't make friends with Japanese people I'll be in trouble.

[Umihito]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I actually spent a lot of time doing research on the topic as part of a project. We covered a lot of issues, mainly from perception of culture by gaijin and the reaction of Japanese. Of course things like using chopsticks weren't a big deal, but when discussing things like a foreigner wearing a yukatta during summer season or things of that nature, nearly 100 percent of the responses were always "That's pretty weird," "Why would they do that?" and things of that nature.

I know this is a real long shot, but your report isn't anywhere online is it? I'd love to read it because I'm very interested in things like that, and Japanese reactions to overly-enthusiastic (or not) foreigners is something I've never really come across yet.

Originally Posted by JohnBraden

Then again, last October I was on the bus in Kyoto when a pale blonde American got on board with a full kimono. It just looked odd to me. I wasn't judging her and I really didn't notice anyone else on the bus staring at her either. Perhaps that is a little more common in Kyoto than Tokyo....

Gah... I'd be SO embaressed to do anything like that. I mean, to do that must take a lot of guts for a foreigner to do that in public.
I really don't like to say this, but I must admit I would be a little embaressed to be on the same bus as her. Unless of course she was in it for a reason, like a wedding, workshop etc.
But generally if it was out of the blue... I'd probably shy away and not make eye contact. I guess that's just me, but I do sorta easily feel embarressed for other people. :L

[Nyororin]

I don`t think that a balance is all that hard to find... At least on the Japanese side.

I am one of the group who does not go out of my way to lower my standards for friendship just because someone is not Japanese. I don`t hold it against anyone - I really don`t care all that much. I`m not going to go out of my way to be friends with someone just because of their national/racial background. I don`t have any friends who are friends because they`re Japanese, just as I don`t have any friends who are friends because they aren`t Japanese.

On the Japanese side, the situations where you are going to be treated strangely are really extremes. The person who doesn`t give a crap about Japanese culture / customs, and stomps all over them is going to get a lot of cringes... And the opposite extreme - the people who feel that they need to wear a kimono and take traditional art classes to "fit in" are going to get raised eyebrows. You can behave "normally" - you don`t need to be one extreme or the other in this department.

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I don`t think that a balance is all that hard to find... At least on the Japanese side.

I am one of the group who does not go out of my way to lower my standards for friendship just because someone is not Japanese. I don`t hold it against anyone - I really don`t care all that much. I`m not going to go out of my way to be friends with someone just because of their national/racial background. I don`t have any friends who are friends because they`re Japanese, just as I don`t have any friends who are friends because they aren`t Japanese.

On the Japanese side, the situations where you are going to be treated strangely are really extremes. The person who doesn`t give a crap about Japanese culture / customs, and stomps all over them is going to get a lot of cringes... And the opposite extreme - the people who feel that they need to wear a kimono and take traditional art classes to "fit in" are going to get raised eyebrows. You can behave "normally" - you don`t need to be one extreme or the other in this department.

I actually agree with you more on the Japanese part. I've found a pretty normal balance in that respect. It's just that I do encounter more people on both ends of the spectrum, and they get the respective reaction from the Japanese people.

On the gaijin side, I think it just ultimately comes back down to the "My Japan Syndrome" we had an entire thread on before, and you've seen the kinds of responses that were elicited.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I actually spent a lot of time doing research on the topic as part of a project. We covered a lot of issues, mainly from perception of culture by gaijin and the reaction of Japanese. Of course things like using chopsticks weren't a big deal, but when discussing things like a foreigner wearing a yukatta during summer season or things of that nature, nearly 100 percent of the responses were always "That's pretty weird," "Why would they do that?" and things of that nature.

I find it difficult to believe that nearly 100% of Japanese are put off by foreigners wearing yukata during the summer (I assume at festivals and the like, and not like wearing a yukata to school, right?).

I am curious how the question was asked and who was responding.

I was a part of a group of high schoolers a few years back doing an exchange in Nara. At the going away party all the host moms of the American girls in the group had them come to the going-away party in ... you guessed i ... yukata. Everyone commented on how wonderful the looked dressed in traditional Japanese clothing. The only people that commented it looked odd were the American boys.

Any walk through the airport or around temples will show traditional Japanese gifts and garb marketed directly to English-speaking buyers. Why would they do that if they didn't want foreigners to buy the stuff?

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by MMM

I find it difficult to believe that nearly 100% of Japanese are put off by foreigners wearing yukata during the summer (I assume at festivals and the like, and not like wearing a yukata to school, right?).

I am curious how the question was asked and who was responding.

The main demographic were younger, university age students, with the next being older. We wanted a response from the younger generation to compare to the older generation to hopefully try and find a progressive trend.

The yukata was one example, but it's really not hard to believe in my opinion. The question was simply along the lines of "What do you think of foreigners who partake in the wearing of (yukata) and other traditional Japanese clothing?" And this wasn't the only question asked, as I said before; there was more research behind this. Anyway, most of the responses came down to the fact that the people we asked felt like many foreigners don't really understand the spirit of the culture and things like matsuri, and while they appreciated the effort, they felt like it was something better observed from afar. To do something like wear yukata to them was simply, foreign.

Originally Posted by MMM

Any walk through the airport or around temples will show traditional Japanese gifts and garb marketed directly to English-speaking buyers. Why would they do that if they didn't want foreigners to buy the stuff?

You should know this is simply commercialism at it's finest. They're not going to completely alienate a group and miss out on sales, and potentially even more tourism. This kind of practice happens all over the world.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by MMM

I find it difficult to believe that nearly 100% of Japanese are put off by foreigners wearing yukata during the summer (I assume at festivals and the like, and not like wearing a yukata to school, right?).

I am going to agree with WingsToDiscovery on this.
It is one thing to wear a yukata as a sort of cultural experience thing... And another to just wear a yukata - even if at a festival or the like. When there is a group of students wearing yukata, they`re going to be viewed as students taking part in some class of sorts. It isn`t quite the same as what would be considered "wearing" one.
For the cultural class sort of thing, you`re trying one on - not really wearing one.

Any walk through the airport or around temples will show traditional Japanese gifts and garb marketed directly to English-speaking buyers. Why would they do that if they didn't want foreigners to buy the stuff?

Because these things are excellent souvenirs, and they sell well? I don`t think it is that people don`t want anyone foreign to put them on - just that wearing them around in public is going to get a weird reaction.

The only situations where it appears to be completely accepted for a foreigner to wear traditional clothing is a wedding (when the bride or groom). There is no "try-it-on" cultural class feel to it, and the kimono itself has a strong enough traditional aspect to it that it is simply a traditional part of the wedding. If having a traditional Shinto-style wedding, wearing anything else would be unthinkable. In pretty much every other situation it is also normal to wear other clothing. (And the overwhelming majority does so.)

[MMM]

I can understand getting nearly a 100% response if your pool of respondents was "young" as you said. They don't like wearing yukata, either.

There are appropriate times and places to wear such things. Outside of those situations, it isn't appropriate for anyone, foreigner or not, to wear them.

I wore traditional garb when I participated in a a danjiri matsuri in my town. My Japanese buddy and I then wore the same get-ups to a Halloween party in our neighborhood. The hosts were jokingly P'O'ed because our "costumes" were "too cool".

At the appropriate situations, I have never heard of hints or even rumors of Japanese thinking foreigners wearing Japanese traditional clothing as inappropriate or strange. If anything quite the opposite. I know people who would tell me exactly what thought about every other situation, so, again, I find this harder to believe with people over the age of 25 or so.