Social Balance as a Gaijin

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Umihito

I really don't like to say this, but I must admit I would be a little embaressed to be on the same bus as her. Unless of course she was in it for a reason, like a wedding, workshop etc.
But generally if it was out of the blue... I'd probably shy away and not make eye contact. I guess that's just me, but I do sorta easily feel embarressed for other people. :L

If she was by herself, in Kyoto, it's likely she was wearing it for a reason. My sumi-e teacher was American and she used to routinely wear kimono into Kyoto to go to tea ceremony and painting seminars, because that was pretty much the uniform. I knew others who were required to wear kimono for shamisen/koto recitals. I always find it a bit harsh when people say foreigners, by dint of being foreign, should or can never partake of traditional Japanese culture publicly- sometimes your hobbies and interests take you that way and then it seems like the only reason not to is pretty feeble. And some Japanese people really, really encourage you to wear it as well, so *shrug* what do you do?

The point is, it's hard to tell from a chance encounter sometimes and it's easy to be judgmental. Maybe, even if she hid it well, felt rather weird and uncomfortable wearing kimono in public too. I know I do, precisely BECAUSE I feel people (especially other foreigners) are probably looking at me and thinking 'What a fake! Go home!'.

Personally I feel that as long as they aren't making a loud and public spectacle of themselves, foreigners can wear traditional clothing and it doesn't bother me. I've never heard any negative comments from Japanese people either, although I've heard plenty from other foreigners. In fact, I've heard more complaints from Japanese people about foreigners dressing inappropriately in western clothes. Definitely I'll agree that there's a time and a place though, for anyone even Japanese people. In the wrong context it does look weird and I guess in those situations I'm more embarrassed by foreigners than Japanese people.

There seems more of a stigma for boys in this situation too; for girls at least there's a bit more encouragement to wear kimono/yukata.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by tokusatsufan

I mean she's passed level 1 of the citizenship test I think

A bit late to notice this... But if she is saying this - start doubting her.

There is no "citizenship test". Trust me.

If she is unable to discuss certain things with Japanese, that is her personal issue. There are obviously taboo subjects in every culture - avoiding friendships with an entire group of people because of the handful of taboo subjects is silly... Which leads me to believe that it isn`t what she is talking about, but rather that there is some other issue putting a wall up in communication.

Chances are - it is one of the common "want to complain about Japan, but Japanese people don`t want to listen, agree, or complain about it too" issues. There are a lot of foreigners in Japan who hate various aspects of Japan and want to let every Japanese person they meet know how bad Japan is in those areas. (And get agrement from the Japanese person, which will add fuel to their argument.) They have a weird tendency to bring these things up pretty much out of the blue and very early on in the relationship... So friendships fizzle quite quickly.

It is kind of sad because they don`t realize that if someone came up to them and wanted to complain about how screwed up their home country was... They probably wouldn`t think too highly of the person and not be their friend either.

It has been a while since this happened, but someone actually complained to me about how no Japanese wanted to talk about how awful Japanese such-and-such was, and how they couldn`t make any Japanese friends because everytime they started talking to someone they would "run away" as soon as she brought up the idiocy of Japanese society. People like this assume that their personal world view is obviously correct, and that everyone will agree with them and not be offended even if their home is insulted out of the blue. Everyone is expected to be very unsatisfied with society, and a lack of complaints is seen as "not wanting to talk". But without realizing that complaining about your own culture/country is quite different from complaining about another.

[tokusatsufan]

Well,you be the judge.
YouTube - ‪33Sammi32's Channel‬‏

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by tokusatsufan

Well,you be the judge.
YouTube - ‪33Sammi32's Channel‬‏

I don`t really have the time or desire to go through a ton of videos... Sorry. I was just noting that if someone says that they have passed citizenship tests - it is a HUGE red flag that they are lying like crazy to give themselves credibility because there are no citizenship tests. And definitely not "levels" of them.

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by MMM

I can understand getting nearly a 100% response if your pool of respondents was "young" as you said. They don't like wearing yukata, either.

I don't know why you're trying to fight me with a subjective response like that.

Originally Posted by MMM

I wore traditional garb when I participated in a a danjiri matsuri in my town. My Japanese buddy and I then wore the same get-ups to a Halloween party in our neighborhood. The hosts were jokingly P'O'ed because our "costumes" were "too cool".

At the appropriate situations, I have never heard of hints or even rumors of Japanese thinking foreigners wearing Japanese traditional clothing as inappropriate or strange. If anything quite the opposite. I know people who would tell me exactly what thought about every other situation, so, again, I find this harder to believe with people over the age of 25 or so.

You'll always be able to say "Well, I..." but just because you had a different experience doesn't mean every JAPANESE person that was asked questions is somehow the wrong ones and you're right.

[RealJames]

I'm finding a lot of this interesting.
I honestly have little to no idea what foreigner-foreigner relations are like in Japan.
With regards to how I am seen by Japanese people, it feels like regardless of how much Japanese I speak, everyone around me wishes I spoke more.
It feels like any behavior I have which is western is being put up with and would be better off dropped like a bad habit.
It honestly feels like there's a consistent and constant desire for me to be less western etc.
When I showed strangers a picture of me wearing a yukatta and tell them that I tied the obi myself, I get the standard "don't brag" thing, and then a kind of happiness from them that a foreigner has taken interest in learning such a Japanese custom.

If I wore my yukatta with pride and strutted down the street, I'm sure that any Japanese person observing it would think that I was getting it all wrong.

[TalnSG]

I think the references to extremes and appropriateness are applicable in these situations. I have witnessed the reactions described within social groups in the U.S. that were focused on Japanese culture. The gaijin were often consumed with being one-up over the newbies and/or those less prone to public displays of the "Japanese-ness". I also recall overhearing the snide comments muttered by the older Nisei in the back of the room. The only difference was that they were not confronting anyone openly. It happens; but it is very rare. And in these cases I would say that it is more a reflection on the individuals than the cultural backgrounds, especially in the case of the Nisei.

In the vast majority of my dealing with Nisei and Japanese visitors to the U.S., they have been extremely appreciative and encouraging of any effort a westerner makes to adopt aspects of their culture.

The only predictable exceptions I have encountered to this have been based on the situation and timing being inappropriate. When any of us (Westerners or Japanese) are dealing with over zealous otaku who seem to have trouble accepting that the world has more in it than anime, even I slip into that judgement mode. Thankfully, those situations are rare too.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I don't know why you're trying to fight me with a subjective response like that.

I am not "trying to fight you" I am just pointing out that the near 100% of Japanese you surveyed who said foreigners look strange in traditional dress was not a wide cross-section of Japanese society. I am guessing they were all under the age of 20. I am also guessing they themselves are not huge fans of traditional Japanese dress. My response wasn't subjective, just confirming my observation.

I wonder if you asked the question like this, to a wider range of ages what you would get?

"What do you think when you see a non-Japanese wearing a yukata at a summer festival?"

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

You'll always be able to say "Well, I..." but just because you had a different experience doesn't mean every JAPANESE person that was asked questions is somehow the wrong ones and you're right.

I bring it up because my experience was 180 degrees different than what your research seems to show. I wouldn't harp on it if you hadn't said "nearly 100%" but because my experience is nearly 100% in the opposite direction, I feel it worth mentioning.

[Gahzirra]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

the people who feel that they need to wear a kimono and take traditional art classes to "fit in" are going to get raised eyebrows. You can behave "normally" - you don`t need to be one extreme or the other in this department.

I find it funny that you use the term "fit in" how about being open minded or wanting to experience something other than you are use to. Guess we should all give strange looks at the Japanese that are eating In N' Out burgers wearing shorts and a T-shirt...shouldn't they be having sushi wearing traditional outfits.

I would be that guy wearing a yukata, why, because I am in Japan to experience a different culture, people, and life style. Should I avoid going to onsen's is that too extreme as well? There is a saying "when in Rome."

When in Japan I avoided areas like Roppongi or Azubu juban simply because they were a gaijin hot spots. Does this make me a weird person? I think not. I was in Japan to experience the people and the culture not to go sit at a British pub surrounded by other gaijin, just like I could be doing at home.

So people can think whatever they want of me, or feel embarrassed(as another poster stated) about my need to "fit in" but I will be enjoying myself and experiencing things I never would have.

[BobbyCooper]

Originally Posted by Gahzirra

I find it funny that you use the term "fit in" how about being open minded or wanting to experience something other than you are use to. Guess we should all give strange looks at the Japanese that are eating In N' Out burgers wearing shorts and a T-shirt...shouldn't they be having sushi wearing traditional outfits.

I would be that guy wearing a yukata, why, because I am in Japan to experience a different culture, people, and life style. Should I avoid going to onsen's is that too extreme as well? There is a saying "when in Rome."

When in Japan I avoided areas like Roppongi or Azubu juban simply because they were a gaijin hot spots. Does this make me a weird person? I think not. I was in Japan to experience the people and the culture not to go sit at a British pub surrounded by other gaijin, just like I could be doing at home.

So people can think whatever they want of me, or feel embarrassed(as another poster stated) about my need to "fit in" but I will be enjoying myself and experiencing things I never would have.

I like the way you think Sir :thumbsup: