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05-22-2011, 07:24 AM
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05-22-2011, 07:32 AM
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 This thread demonstrates Wings original statement Quote:
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05-22-2011, 07:41 AM
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Alright then... Well point to the part where she says that she is normal while the guy wearing the yukata is trying to fit in? Because the part you quoted certainly had nothing to do with what you thought she said and after reading her previous post AND taking into account the context it was made (as a reply to RealJames) then I still don't see it. In fact she goes out of her way to make it known that she's simply representing her experience.
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05-22-2011, 07:44 AM
Here you go...Do you need me to also quote the story where they were picked on because they had a passion for Japan that others did not share?
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05-22-2011, 08:52 AM
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I think you missed out that I didn`t say I had a passion - I just didn`t freaking hate Japan. It seems that in your world there is only one extreme or the other. I came to Japan during high school. Yes I was interested in the country. I don`t recall ever saying anything to the opposite of that. Obviously I didn`t just magically appear in the country out of the blue. The point is - I am who I am. My experience is my personal experience. I didn`t go out of my way to "fit in". I did what I was comfortable doing and did not do what I was uncomfortable with. I followed the guide of mt peers, who *shock and awe* were Japanese. Because, in case you missed my multiple references, a fair chunk of my schooling was done in Japan in normal Japanese schools. I suppose if you want to nitpick and say that I "tried to fit in" because I wasn`t running about making sure I was a social outcast - then sure, go ahead. But you`re going to have to say the same thing about ANYONE who has ever been in a school and wanted to have friends. Doing what everyone else does is not what I was talking about. I was pointing out that there are people out there who go well over and beyond what other people do for the sake of fitting in... And end up totally overshooting the mark - often without even realizing it. In regard to the other post you seem to be wanting to bring up as some evidence that I`m not who I represent myself as... It seems that you would understand the concept of wanting to experience new things being as you said the same thing about yourself and I pointed out that it was NOT what I was talking about. Trying things is one thing - doing it (and taking it to an extreme) because you think it is going to make you fit in is something entirely different. All the students in the school took a "traditional culture" class once a month. Did I not opt out of it or think it was the "stupidest thing ever" because I wasn`t Japanese? Nope. I took the classes with everyone else. But I didn`t go on and on that they were the greatest thing ever and so "Japanese", look at me I love Japan, etc etc etc. I tried things with my peers, most of them also trying things for the first time because the average Japanese person doesn`t do all that much traditional stuff. But I guess you just want to think that I ran around bowing to "superior" Japanese in some hope that they`ll think I`m worthy of their time and attention, so I don`t really know why I bother replying. Apparently it is completely unthinkable that someone had a different experience than you. ETA; Quote:
To quote myself - Quote:
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05-22-2011, 09:49 AM
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I was merely pointing out as Wise had posted "Then another gaijin will get the same crap for being "too" into the culture." It's a completely subjective point of view. You and many other gaijin are drawing an imaginary line of what you deem is "ok" and what you consider is extreme and the person is trying too hard to fit in. I understand people have a passion or some love of the culture/country why else would you choose to live there? Yet, why is it so strange for someone to have a greater passion than yours and take it a step further? To me that's like saying my level of interest in Japan is "normal" anything more than that is too extreme and you are obviously trying hard to fit in. I guess I don't understand how one cannot see the error in this thinking. I could be sitting here in SoCal and say, "Foreigners who move to Japan and practice the culture to any degree...are just trying hard to fit in." The guy is obviously a wannabe Japanese. I am defining normal as simply having an interest in Japan...moving there is extreme. This whole idea would be very wrong on my part, I cannot tell anyone how they should think and I cannot use my concept of norm to define another. Quote:
Reminds me of a philosophy class, where the Professor said the wall is green and the students all said its blue. To which he replied how do you know what I see is what you see? Hope this makes sense
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05-22-2011, 09:57 AM
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what did I say/do that was rebellious? ... O.o Aside from that, I agree that the degrees of "trying to fit in" have a grey-scale of depth and that they are very subjective based on where you stand yourself. Having said that, there are some milestones, in this case the biggest one being how those native to the culture perceive you. By definition of the effort at hand, this notch in the grey scale is significant indeed.
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05-22-2011, 10:17 AM
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I don`t think that I am drawing some sort of line... Or, well, I am but it isn`t between what is extreme and what is normal. It is between honest interest (and doing things to fulfill that interest) and "Japan is so cool, OMG, I`ll do all this cultural stuff because it will make me more like the cool Japanese people!! All you people who can`t do the traditional stuff don`t really deserve to be in Japan." Columbine gave a wonderful example. While that example isn`t in Japan, the same applies to foreigners actually in the country. There are (quite a number of) people who think Japan is just a perfect heaven on earth, and will go out of their way to do anything because it is "Japanese" and fits into their image of the country... And believe that it will bring them closer to the Japanese people, and make them more "Japanese"... As if they will turn into some godlike being with no problems should they manage it. My point was never to say that people shouldn`t take part in traditional activities, or that they shouldn`t try new things. What I was saying is that wearing a yukata, even at a festival, isn`t going to make you fit in. Chances are, it will do the opposite. My experience and the opinions of everyone I have asked go along with it being "strange" to see a foreigner out and about in a kimono or yukata. While they might say it looks great, there is a line drawn between trying it on and actually wearing it about. The older people think it`s sweet that a foreigner is trying something traditional, but it stops at "trying" - the assumption is always going to be that it is some cultural experience class sort of thing. Should this discourage someone from trying something? Of course not. But using that as a path to being "more Japanese" is just silly - which is what I have been trying to say. Normal Japanese don`t really do it on a regular basis, so it stands out even more when someone who already stands out to some extent does it. As a tangent - There are a ton of people in Japan who are incredibly unhappy because they spend all their time trying to be someone they are not in order to assimilate to some level. (And feel even more frustration on top because even with all their efforts, they often cannot.) I feel that even if they don`t fit in, they would have a much better life and be much happier being themselves instead of striving for a goal that will leave them trapped in the same pattern of living a facade. Obviously everyone should be aware of the big cultural taboos and the basic rules to not cause problems, but it isn`t necessary to force yourself into a life that does not fit in order to be happy in Japan. The only times I can recall being unpleasant to someone about their lifestyle in Japan has been when they made a point out of abusing the system or thought it was great fun to ignore the rules and inconvenience people. I would go crazy if I were forcing myself to act like someone I am not, and would definitely not be happy. When I said that I don`t try to fit in, this is what I meant. I couldn`t pull off living some facade as I get irritated and frustrated with that sort of thing very quickly. The fact that I apparently fit in fairly well must be because I am just the type of person who fits in - not because I took some incredible effort to shove myself into a Japanese mold.
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05-22-2011, 10:24 AM
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05-22-2011, 10:31 AM
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