University Degree: Good Rule or Bad Rule?

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by Umihito

Probably a stupid question, but what kind of school is your school? International university? English language?
I'm guessing it's because they're the most culturally mixed areas, too. California gets Japantown and most of the Anime fests and Japanese tourists and stuff, with East Coast states not far behind.
Of course, that's just my guess, it could be for any reasons.
Ahh I see. For some reason I never pictured them all the way up there. :L

My school is an international university. You're right, both California and the East Coast both have quite a large Japanese culture following. My hometown (Baltimore) hosts one of the largest Anime conventions on the East Coast every year called "Otakon," although I've never been.

[BobbyCooper]

I do support this rule by the Japanese Government however, they overlook apprenticeships a little to easily in my eyes. It should be equal to a Bachelors degree. And if people are good at what they do in their specific topic, then they should get the chance to go to Japan and work there just as well as an overrated Bachelor degree from a 21 year old with no life experience.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by BobbyCooper

I do support this rule by the Japanese Government however, they overlook apprenticeships a little to easily in my eyes. It should be equal to a Bachelors degree. And if people are good at what they do in their specific topic, then they should get the chance to go to Japan and work there just as well as an overrated Bachelor degree from a 21 year old with no life experience.

That's a good point.
I agree Bachelors are often overrated also.
The problem is quantifying it, Bachelors are easy, tangible even.
Apprenticeships are difficult to show and validate and I know of no internationally accredited apprenticeship institutions.

The semantics of legal and social systems are a bad fit for real life.

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by Umihito

Probably a stupid question, but what kind of school is your school? International university? English language?
I'm guessing it's because they're the most culturally mixed areas, too. California gets Japantown and most of the Anime fests and Japanese tourists and stuff, with East Coast states not far behind.
Of course, that's just my guess, it could be for any reasons.
Ahh I see. For some reason I never pictured them all the way up there. :L



Yes, I do think we should follow that example. It's just too bad about the whole cheap labour thing you said about. :/

It's strange though. I agree that there are increasing numbers going to uni, but I still hear that lots and lots of people are still being turned down after an overcrowded, strenuous selection process. I'm not sure if that's because they're popular universities or not though.



Can you give a source or somewhere where you saw this? I honestly haven''t seen anywhere that's given a number of people with degrees there, so it'll be interesting to read.
A surprising conclusion though. I would have thought that the amount of people there on a spousal visa would be very very low, seems as a marriage takes a lot, lot longer to achieve and more commitment in most cases.

It's rather obvious. The Nigerian doormen you see in Roppongi and Harajuku are not university educated, few have even high school educations. The Israeli food and souvenir sellers do not have degrees, and quite a few English teachers are also here without degrees.

Western foreigners make less than 1% of the foreign population in Japan, so it's easy to overlook those from Africa or other parts of Asia, and the greater part of the people from these places have no degree of any type. Some stay on special visa for service industry workers, others came as students or tourists, and are not in Japan legally (a few times a week a large bus full of overstayers leaves from the detention center in Shinagawa and heads to Narita to be deported).

As for the Nigerians, they are all married to Japanese citizens, and the same is true of many others. When I was at the drivers license center taking my driving test, most of the other test-takers were also married to Japanese men or women. None that I was aware of were unversity educated, a few were Filipino housewives, one was an American soldier with a Japanese wife, while others were dependents of mixed families.

[acjama]

Originally Posted by BobbyCooper

Bachelor degree from a 21 year old with no life experience.

Exactly how does formal education remove or prevent "life experience" from people?

I hear the same claims all over again, all over the world. They are all identical, and that is suspicious to say the least. Nobody doesn't seem to be willing to explain how a non-educated person's "life experience" might be in any way greater than a student's of similar age, and that has led me to the conclusion that this idea is not their own, just copy&pasted from somebody.

This might be a little harsh to say out loud, but employers will always choose the one with knowledge and possible contacts of the field and concrete proof of a desire to improve oneself, rather than the one who simply claims undefined "life experience", most likely from a completely irrelevant field.

Sorry to be so confrontational, but I believe my point is valid. Everybody is born equal, but after that, those who work hard for their future should have more than those who just expect automatic rewards. And yes, your "hard work" is defined as such by others only, not you yourself.

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by acjama

Exactly how does formal education remove or prevent "life experience" from people?

I hear the same claims all over again, all over the world. They are all identical, and that is suspicious to say the least. Nobody doesn't seem to be willing to explain how a non-educated person's "life experience" might be in any way greater than a student's of similar age, and that has led me to the conclusion that this idea is not their own, just copy&pasted from somebody.

This might be a little harsh to say out loud, but employers will always choose the one with knowledge and possible contacts of the field and concrete proof of a desire to improve oneself, rather than the one who simply claims undefined "life experience", most likely from a completely irrelevant field.

Sorry to be so confrontational, but I believe my point is valid. Everybody is born equal, but after that, those who work hard for their future should have more than those who just expect automatic rewards. And yes, your "hard work" is defined as such by others only, not you yourself.

I agree. I always feel like people who don't have a degree are always trying to lowball my education by saying their X amount of experience is worth more. And, people always treat the two as if they're mutually exclusive. Throughout my education I've held several different jobs and internships, both providing me with valuable experience relevant to my field of study, which has killed two birds with one stone. That's worth more than "life experience," as you said.

[Umihito]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

It's rather obvious. The Nigerian doormen you see in Roppongi and Harajuku are not university educated, few have even high school educations. The Israeli food and souvenir sellers do not have degrees, and quite a few English teachers are also here without degrees.

Western foreigners make less than 1% of the foreign population in Japan, so it's easy to overlook those from Africa or other parts of Asia, and the greater part of the people from these places have no degree of any type. Some stay on special visa for service industry workers, others came as students or tourists, and are not in Japan legally (a few times a week a large bus full of overstayers leaves from the detention center in Shinagawa and heads to Narita to be deported).

As for the Nigerians, they are all married to Japanese citizens, and the same is true of many others. When I was at the drivers license center taking my driving test, most of the other test-takers were also married to Japanese men or women. None that I was aware of were unversity educated, a few were Filipino housewives, one was an American soldier with a Japanese wife, while others were dependents of mixed families.

True true, sometimes it's hard to remember how much of the foreign population of Japan westerners make. I made the mistake of assuming you meant Westerners exclusively in your post, sorry.

I don't know if you know or not, but in regard to the Nigerians marrying Japanese, are the marriages truly legit, or are they just scam marriages that some people try? If it's scam marriages, it just seems like such an un-Japanese thing to do (on the Japanese partners side of things of course).

And wow, I'd love to know how the English teachers manage to pull off coming over without a degree. I thought Japanese immigration were really strict with this stuff. Unless they came in via the 10 years experience route of course.

Originally Posted by acjama

Exactly how does formal education remove or prevent "life experience" from people?

This might be a little harsh to say out loud, but employers will always choose the one with knowledge and possible contacts of the field and concrete proof of a desire to improve oneself, rather than the one who simply claims undefined "life experience", most likely from a completely irrelevant field.

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I agree. I always feel like people who don't have a degree are always trying to lowball my education by saying their X amount of experience is worth more. And, people always treat the two as if they're mutually exclusive. Throughout my education I've held several different jobs and internships, both providing me with valuable experience relevant to my field of study, which has killed two birds with one stone. That's worth more than "life experience," as you said.

Yes, this is exactly the other end of the scale I was expecting to come into this thread, about claiming life experience is more important and how wanting a degree is too strict. Seems that they're in the minority though.

I've experienced it too, the whole lowballing my education, and I haven't even been to university (not sure what the American equivalent of a British college is, but it's only one step down from uni)! And yes, it was from someone who hasn't even gone that far, assuming she was going to become a millionaire businesswoman by basically... luck and 'street' experience.

Even if their life experience would be more useful than a degree, it'd be just too hard to pick the genuine people from that.

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by acjama

Exactly how does formal education remove or prevent "life experience" from people?

I hear the same claims all over again, all over the world. They are all identical, and that is suspicious to say the least. Nobody doesn't seem to be willing to explain how a non-educated person's "life experience" might be in any way greater than a student's of similar age, and that has led me to the conclusion that this idea is not their own, just copy&pasted from somebody.

This might be a little harsh to say out loud, but employers will always choose the one with knowledge and possible contacts of the field and concrete proof of a desire to improve oneself, rather than the one who simply claims undefined "life experience", most likely from a completely irrelevant field.

Sorry to be so confrontational, but I believe my point is valid. Everybody is born equal, but after that, those who work hard for their future should have more than those who just expect automatic rewards. And yes, your "hard work" is defined as such by others only, not you yourself.

I also agree strongly with this. I often wonder what these peoples' 'life experience' actually is. I've been all over the world and experienced so many wonderful things because of my education, I don't usually understand how someone who hasn't taken up these opportunities can be any better or worse when it comes to 'life experience.' Surely all types of experiences are life experiences and education is a way to expand such experiences, in my view.

Personally I often find it's just a way to dimiss their own failures in education as something positive, and that is harsh but often true.

[BobbyCooper]

Originally Posted by RealJames

That's a good point.
I agree Bachelors are often overrated also.
The problem is quantifying it, Bachelors are easy, tangible even.
Apprenticeships are difficult to show and validate and I know of no internationally accredited apprenticeship institutions.

The semantics of legal and social systems are a bad fit for real life.

Thats very true James. And this is exactly the Problem with apprenticeships around the World.

For example, here in Germany it's the most common thing to do for the majority of young people and if you don't have one, then you count as a laborer everywhere you go. But when you look overseas, like Japan for example most countries do not even have something like an apprenticeship or can't define one.

It takes 3 1/2 years for us to archive one, with school and everything around it. I think it's a huge step in life and should be acknowledged around the World.

Originally Posted by acjama

Exactly how does formal education remove or prevent "life experience" from people?

I hear the same claims all over again, all over the world. They are all identical, and that is suspicious to say the least. Nobody doesn't seem to be willing to explain how a non-educated person's "life experience" might be in any way greater than a student's of similar age, and that has led me to the conclusion that this idea is not their own, just copy&pasted from somebody.

This might be a little harsh to say out loud, but employers will always choose the one with knowledge and possible contacts of the field and concrete proof of a desire to improve oneself, rather than the one who simply claims undefined "life experience", most likely from a completely irrelevant field.

Sorry to be so confrontational, but I believe my point is valid. Everybody is born equal, but after that, those who work hard for their future should have more than those who just expect automatic rewards. And yes, your "hard work" is defined as such by others only, not you yourself.

The only thing what counts in this World is evidence you are correct here. Experience in all kind of fields means nothing if you haven't the graduation to actually prove it. School and University is great and you will learn what you choose, but it doesn't get much further then that. When you choose to study the English language, then you will study the English language.. but it won't help you to get around in this World with a 3 year Bachelors degree or give you any Life Experience sitting in full class room and reading English novels.

Life-Experience is something you can only get when you move around, do all kinds of Jobs, travel in all kinds of countries and perhaps study aboard.. far away from your actual home and beloved ones. Travel to countries where your mother tongue isn't the first language for example, away from your close friends and try to get along there by your own.

Attending the school of Life is what I mean!!


Like Kintaro Oe

Kintaro, despite having met the requirements for a law degree, left Tokyo University without graduating. Golden Boy depicts his living the life of a free spirit, roaming Japan from town to town, job to job. During his travels, Kintaro meets several women whose lives he dramatically changes, despite poor first impressions. He constantly observes and studies the people and events around him, recording his findings in a notebook he carries on his belt.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by BobbyCooper

Life-Experience is something you can only get when you move around, do all kinds of Jobs, travel in all kinds of countries and perhaps study aboard.. far away from your actual home and beloved ones. Travel to countries where your mother tongue isn't the first language for example, away from your close friends and try to get along there by your own.

I don`t think there was any negativity directed toward life experience in itself. I think that the point Acjama was trying to make was that it seems like formal education and life experience are mutually exclusive. As in, if you have one you cannot have the other.

That makes no sense, as obviously the best case scenario is to have life experience backed by a formal education. Both can only take you so far...

Given the choice though, I would choose someone with just a formal education over someone with nothing but life experience. Life experience is helpful, but I don`t think it can replace an education.

An example to illustrate this;

A does B.

1. Life Experience - A does B, because every time I`ve done A, it has resulted in B.

2. Formal Education - A does B almost all of the time, and here are the actual reasons. But the more reliable, 100% option would be AAC does B so let`s do that to be safe.

3. Formal Education + Life Experience - A does B most of the time, and will suffice in almost all cases. But if it doesn`t work, toss another A and a C in there and we can get it doing B for sure.

Sure, 1 may encounter a time when A doesn`t do B - but without the education they likely won`t know why and won`t know what to do to counter it. 3 is the best choice, followed by 2 and then 1.