Circumcision?

[Paul11]

Most of the parenting books that raise the issue are concerned with sudden infant death syndrom and not any cultural aspect. There has been a near-panicked response to SIDS and the effort to educate innadequate parents on how not to kill thier babies.

Almost everyone I know or work with have had babies in the last five years and almost all of them have slept with the baby. I've never heard of anyone having a negative reaction to people sleeping with thier babies.

The negative side of that is that the parents have a difficult time maintaining thier relationship if the baby is there 24 hours a day. Even more difficult is when they do eventually attempt to move the baby into it's own crib or bed. The transition is so difficult that many give up and sleep with the child too long.

We slept in our daughters room next to her own crib. So she was close, but not between us. (We bonded with plenty of "skinship" during waking hours). After a while we moved to our own room. That eased the transition because the baby wasn't moved. She got to keep her turf, so to speak.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Paul11

Most of the parenting books that raise the issue are concerned with sudden infant death syndrom and not any cultural aspect. There has been a near-panicked response to SIDS and the effort to educate innadequate parents on how not to kill thier babies.

But the horror of SIDS, and the huge push to make the baby learn to "soothe itself" are completely different things. SIDS rates in co-sleepers are lower than in those in babies who sleep alone. Suffocation due to the parent being under the influence of something (drugs or alcohol) is the main issue with babies dying while sleeping with a parent.
The main push is indeed cultural.

Almost everyone I know or work with have had babies in the last five years and almost all of them have slept with the baby. I've never heard of anyone having a negative reaction to people sleeping with thier babies.

But how many of them STILL sleep with their babies? Co-sleeping isn`t having the baby in a bassinet in the room and pulling it into the bed when it needs fed. Nor is it letting the child sleep with the parents when they`ve had a bad dream or are sick.

The negative side of that is that the parents have a difficult time maintaining thier relationship if the baby is there 24 hours a day. Even more difficult is when they do eventually attempt to move the baby into it's own crib or bed. The transition is so difficult that many give up and sleep with the child too long.

And here is where the cultural bits kick in! What is "too long"? What if a parent doesn`t feel that the child needs to be moved out of the family bed at all?
THAT is where you start hitting on some major cultural ideals and issues. Most people in the US feel that the sooner the baby can put itself to sleep in another room, away from the parents... the better. Because, well, if you let them depend on their parents at night for too long, you`ll have hell to pay in the end / are setting the child up for "issues" / etc.

If you think this isn`t a cultural issue... tell me why - despite multiple studies that show the opposite - people in the US believe that a child who is not moved to their own bed will have all sorts of problems. Tell me why in Japan, every parent I know sees it as totally acceptable to have their children sleep with them up until grade school and beyond.

These are indeed cultural issues, but so implanted as fact in the minds of most people in the US that they don`t immediately appear to be so.

[Paul11]

I know what co-sleeping is. Most people I know do it. In case you forgot, American is a diverse society, especially in California where whites are the minority and where most people I know have relatives or parents who came from all over the earth. It's very common here. Most of the self-soothing stuff I read was really outdated - The Dr. Spock stuff that my generation was raised with.

And when did I say this isn't a cultural issue? I'm a cultural anthropologist by education and training. One of the cultural differences is that American culture respects and expects self-sufficiency. In Japan the cultural group and family is more close-knit. The American style of dependance does not work in Japan. The Japanese style doesn't work so well in America either - a child raised that way in the states would be considered weak.

Once again, you took some pretty general and innocuous ideas, from someone who has always expressed respect to you and solidarity on several issues, and blew them out of proportion. This issue is by no means a central issue to anything.

Please don't assume people are either stupid or attacking your posts.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by Paul11

I know what co-sleeping is. Most people I know do it. In case you forgot, American is a diverse society, especially in California where whites are the minority and where most people I know have relatives or parents who came from all over the earth. It's very common here. Most of the self-soothing stuff I read was really outdated - The Dr. Spock stuff that my generation was raised with.

And when did I say this isn't a cultural issue? I'm a cultural anthropologist by education and training. One of the cultural differences is that American culture respects and expects self-sufficiency. In Japan the cultural group and family is more close-knit. The American style of dependance does not work in Japan. The Japanese style doesn't work so well in America either - a child raised that way in the states would be considered weak.

Once again, you took some pretty general and innocuous ideas, from someone who has always expressed respect to you and solidarity on several issues, and blew them out of proportion. This issue is by no means a central issue to anything.

Please don't assume people are either stupid or attacking your posts.

You know, by that bolded sentence there, I guess I'm a Japanese person trapped in a black person's body. :lol:

[Paul11]

Originally Posted by SSJup81

You know, by that bolded sentence there, I guess I'm a Japanese person trapped in a black person's body. :lol:

So you think Japanese person, family or culture can be summed up in one sentence?

That was rediculous.

The statement stands as one statement about one aspect of one topic.

Christ almighty, do people really just look for things to fight or argue about in these threads? Is it possible to have one discussion where thin-skinned people don't assume a post is an attack or where someone doesn't turn a discussion onto an argument?

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Paul11

Please don't assume people are either stupid or attacking your posts.

I didn`t feel you were stupid or attacking me. In fact, I didn`t even realize your post was directly in reply to me. I thought it was just your views on the issue.

I wrote that in what I believed was a very calm manner. I think you misunderstood my statements as being in anger or something of the like. It wasn`t at all.

You said that the issues regarding co-sleeping were not cultural ones, but were related to SIDS. I was pointing out that the issue with SIDS is not a real issue, and has been proven not to be. So it is all cultural. It doesn`t matter what sort of paper it`s wrapped in - clear, or printed with SIDS - the issue at heart is an entirely cultural one.

You state that there is a lot of diversity around you, and that you are aware of this. Less than 15% of the US population admits to sleeping with their children past the age of 1. You live in an area that allows for a lot of variation. Most people do not.

Either way, you yourself stated that there is indeed a "too long" for co-sleeping, and that there are problems caused by it if it continues. I admit, that part did make me sigh... As it just shows how ingrained the belief of co-sleeping → problems is.

I still suggest you muck around a bit in parenting sites - particularly message boards - to see just how very negative the view of co-sleeping is in the majority.

[Paul11]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I didn`t feel you were stupid or attacking me. In fact, I didn`t even realize your post was directly in reply to me. I thought it was just your views on the issue.

I wrote that in what I believed was a very calm manner. I think you misunderstood my statements as being in anger or something of the like. It wasn`t at all.

You said that the issues regarding co-sleeping were not cultural ones, but were related to SIDS. I was pointing out that the issue with SIDS is not a real issue, and has been proven not to be. So it is all cultural. It doesn`t matter what sort of paper it`s wrapped in - clear, or printed with SIDS - the issue at heart is an entirely cultural one.

You state that there is a lot of diversity around you, and that you are aware of this. Less than 15% of the US population admits to sleeping with their children past the age of 1. You live in an area that allows for a lot of variation. Most people do not.

Either way, you yourself stated that there is indeed a "too long" for co-sleeping, and that there are problems caused by it if it continues. I admit, that part did make me sigh... As it just shows how ingrained the belief of co-sleeping → problems is.

I still suggest you muck around a bit in parenting sites - particularly message boards - to see just how very negative the view of co-sleeping is in the majority.

So, is it o.k. for a 16 year-old girl to sleep with her father? Are you saying there's no limit to this cultural issue?

In the states, the main objection to co-sleeping is not cultural. It's about SIDS. I may have used poor wording. There are, of course, cultural issues heres, but the previous two sentances should suffice.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Paul11

So, is it o.k. for a 16 year-old girl to sleep with her father? Are you saying there's no limit to this cultural issue?

If they are sleeping, then I do think it is okay.
My husband slept with his parents - both of them - until he moved out. As did his sister and brother.

It isn`t nearly as unthinkable a scenario as you present it as.

In the states, the main objection to co-sleeping is not cultural. It's about SIDS. I may have used poor wording. There are, of course, cultural issues heres, but the previous two sentances should suffice.

What I am trying to say is that although SIDS is offered up as a reason, the real reason is entirely cultural. SIDS is used to justify the cultural belief. The fact that SIDS rates are actually lower in co-sleepers verifies this. People believe in their culture, and want something factual to back up these beliefs. In the case of co-sleeping, SIDS is taking that role.

[Paul11]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

If they are sleeping, then I do think it is okay.
My husband slept with his parents - both of them - until he moved out. As did his sister and brother.

It isn`t nearly as unthinkable a scenario as you present it as.



What I am trying to say is that although SIDS is offered up as a reason, the real reason is entirely cultural. SIDS is used to justify the cultural belief. The fact that SIDS rates are actually lower in co-sleepers verifies this. People believe in their culture, and want something factual to back up these beliefs. In the case of co-sleeping, SIDS is taking that role.

What's your medical training? Medical doctors are using SIDS as a way to justify...? I'm not sure staistical data backs you up.

And sleeping with your parents may be seen as acceptable in some cultures, but that doesn't make it good. Kuru is a disease that came from eating human brains, but they thought that was the right thing to do. (great examnple, huh? ) I don't think it's particularly healthy for a marriage to sleep with your parents until you move out? this is also in a country where there is a lot of evidence that 'sex-less" or love-less marriages are a problem. It's not "unthinkable" or unfamiliar to me, just not healthy.

The kids should be the focus of the family. everything is about making sure they will be healthy and successfull. But not at the expense of the marriage relationship. I think it's just as healthy to show a child that mommy and daddy love each other and that there are sacred, intimate parts of that relationship that are not shared. sleeping together is a mysterious hint of that to children.

Kids can learn thier parents love them from other ways than sleeping together until thier adults.

I don't think I know everything about this issue or claim to be an expert. Not saying you can't be right, just my opinion and experience.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Paul11

What's your medical training? Medical doctors are using SIDS as a way to justify...? I'm not sure staistical data backs you up.

Do a search. Go to your library and pull up medical journals (ETA; Specifically helpful is Paediatric Respiratory Reviews - they gather studies related to their specialty.) if you don`t regularly read them. Visit the open library at our local hospital. You`re also invited to speak to the countless specialists I personally know who are involved in international studies on reducing infant apnea in children who are clearly predisposed to it.
I also suggest contacting groups involved with following infants with lung and breathing difficulties after discharge.

My son suffers from these conditions, so I think that I have probably done a LOT more research into the area than the majority of parents... And likely the average pediatrician.

And sleeping with your parents may be seen as acceptable in some cultures, but that doesn't make it good. Kuru is a disease that came from eating human brains, but they thought that was the right thing to do. (great examnple, huh? ) I don't think it's particularly healthy for a marriage to sleep with your parents until you move out? this is also in a country where there is a lot of evidence that 'sex-less" or love-less marriages are a problem.

I can say the exact same thing in regard to not sleeping with parents. It isn`t as if the US is a shining example of successful and happy marriages - isn`t the divorce rate 50% or more these days? Isn`t the running joke in the US something along the lines of getting married means no more sex?
I don`t think that kids have much to do with things in either country.

The kids should be the focus of the family. everything is about making sure they will be healthy and successfull. But not at the expense of the marriage relationship. I think it's just as healthy to show a child that mommy and daddy love each other and that there are sacred, intimate parts of that relationship that are not shared. sleeping together is a mysterious hint of that to children.

And that is your family view, you are welcome to it. I have never intended to criticize your choices, as I have no right to comment on them. I`m not part of your family and do not know you personally.
I will say that I do not share that opinion, and I believe that sleeping with my son has certainly not hurt any relationships in our family. Marital relations have not changed. We have a big bed.

Kids can learn thier parents love them from other ways than sleeping together until thier adults.

Yes they can. That doesn`t mean that sleeping with their parents is a negative thing.
Someone can go through life getting all their necessary nutrition and calories from some specific set of foods... That doesn`t mean that there is something wrong with someone who likes variety.