Bringing an Adopted Child into Japan

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

This post, along with the others elsewhere you have posted, seem to have a very emotional tone. I won't characterise it, yet, as angry, but I am reading this with a fair amount of hostility. Am I wrong?

I don't get angry .. I get mad.


Whatever man... the difference is your taking the child out of their element into a foreign environment that puts them right in the spot light for them to be discrimated against. Take that with having to trust a new stranger as their single parent would never be allowed by any American adoption agency. Your bringing a child into a country that is not his or her own be raised in that country would always be a foreigner there. This is childish dream I should of never responded to.

Do read on the US state and federal requirements ; before one would make a fool of themselves in front of the adoption board. Your plan / concept is silly even in a couple of years (based on first post of this thread)... Maybe by then you'll understand that any U.S. Adoption agency wouldn't allow you to adopt based on the *first post* of this thread alone. US Adoption agencies need guarentees that the child is well cared for. A single US citizen father in a foriegn country on a work (I assume work) visa wanting to take a child over to a foreign country would never be allowed for all the reasons I stated and much much more.

Reverse culture shock is a term made up by international study phds with too much time on their hands... ^_^

Oh boy...now we are off topic:

Yes yes...Japan has great public Transportation (but not cheap)... but you won't ever see true public transportation in all of the US... why?? Think about it... thats right... Japan is the size of California... Urban sprawl. It doesn't work in the land of this size. Seattle just spend 2.8 billion on a light rail system that runs 14 miles and is EMPTY during their rush hour. Gas is cheap and DAMN cars are cheap now. With Obama and friends HANDING out $4500 to buy a new car that only gets 4 more MPG than the used car. Why would America change? He is not the answer....he, like more government, is the problem.

Yes Nationalized health care works wonders in the UK and Canada... enjoy your 24 hour wait in the ER or 1 month wait for a scan or 3 months to start cancer treatment. US has one of the BEST system in the world. The 15% of citizens not insured and the illegals getting free medical care are the cause of why health care and health insurance is sky high for the individual.

Japan's health insurance system is nice, but it just wont work with the complexities and size of the American population... Plus it doesn't hurt to say that over 50 percent of Japanese hospitals are in financial deficit now.

I do appreciate those who do move abroad that don't care for what is offerred here.
As the old saying goes... "If you don't like it here, why don't you move to another country"... and so he did... until things happened their ^^/

There is a happy median there somewhere..

[Tsuwabuki]

If you're mad, then the conversation should be over. You need to step back, take a breath, and examine why you've allowed an internet conversation to annoy you that much.

You make a lot of claims and back them up with nothing. I have read the US federal and the Texas state guidelines. I have also read the ROC guidelines. I acknowledged my concern about a State official making a home visit, but embassy/consular staff are State officials. If you know differently, please present evidence.

I am not a child. I am a very responsible adult who has done very well in two different countries. Unlike many Americans, I was able to pay off my student loans in three years. I have worked hard to get where I am, and I have done so by recognising opportunities and pursuing them, but not while accepting an undue level of risk. Your assessment of my interest in adoption is not only inaccurate, it is highly inflammatory.

Your political views are ones I strongly disagree with. With your current tone, I will decline engaging you, but will make a donation to MoveOn.org just because of your post. In the end, due to a number of factors, I judge your "advice" to be highly biased, prejudicial, and uninformed. I cannot, in good conscience, consider it in my deliberations. However, thank you for contributing to the dialogue.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

If you're mad, then the conversation should be over. You need to step back, take a breath, and examine why you've allowed an internet conversation to annoy you that much.

You make a lot of claims and back them up with nothing. I have read the US federal and the Texas state guidelines. I have also read the ROC guidelines. I acknowledged my concern about a State official making a home visit, but embassy/consular staff are State officials. If you know differently, please present evidence.

I am not a child. I am a very responsible adult who has done very well in two different countries. Unlike many Americans, I was able to pay off my student loans in three years. I have worked hard to get where I am, and I have done so by recognising opportunities and pursuing them, but not while accepting an undue level of risk. Your assessment of my interest in adoption is not only inaccurate, it is highly inflammatory.

Your political views are ones I strongly disagree with. With your current tone, I will decline engaging you, but will make a donation to MoveOn.org just because of your post. In the end, due to a number of factors, I judge your "advice" to be highly biased, prejudicial, and uninformed. I cannot, in good conscience, consider it in my deliberations.

I'm not really mad, just angry... wait... maybe I just get off on debating the ridiculous.

Well I don't think I can backup all the experience I've and others like me have had other than to type them up and have them critiqued by you and such... I've got better things to do to... so you can just ignore the 18 wheeler approaching you as you stand in the middle of the street.

I don't think you are a child, if I mistyped somewhere up there, my appologies. Maybe a bit "young" in your ideas. Please let me save off this post and deliver it up to you in 5 years or so we can both have a good laugh.

Well why don't you take a bow mister very responsibility.... congrats on paying off your student loan. How shall the government reward you for doing this?

Sorry you don't like the tone... maybe its your amplifier.

Well hell yeah you disagree or I wouldn't be hijacking this thread.

the moveon.org donation comment was witty.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

However, thank you for contributing to the dialogue.

Trust me it was my pleasure to dispute your crazy plan ^_^

But all in all your debating skills are much better than mine when I was your age.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by clintjm

I'm not really mad, just angry... wait... maybe I just get off on debating the ridiculous.

Now this I believe, because in many ways, you strike me as a troll.

Well I don't think I can backup all the experience I've and others like me have had other than to type them up and have them critiqued by you and such... I've got better things to do to... so you can just ignore the 18 wheeler approaching you as you stand in the middle of the street.

Just who are you, what experience do you have, how do you expect me to believe anything you say without warrant and justification? You need evidence.

I don't think you are a child, if I mistyped somewhere up there, my appologies. Maybe a bit "young" in your ideas. Please let me save off this post and deliver it up to you in 5 years or so we can both have a good laugh.

You called my interest in adoption a "childish dream." That's more than just saying I'm "a bit 'young' in [my] ideas." Actually, I think the me of five years from now will be quite pleased with the me of now, for reasons already explained. I'm quite a bit ahead of the game compared to my peers. I have savings, I have a steady job, I have a retirement account, I have no debts. How many mid-twenty year olds can you name that can say the same? I think I can name maybe two of my friends who fall into this category. The vast majority do not.

Well why don't you take a bow mister very responsibility.... congrats on paying off your student loan. How shall the government reward you for doing this?

Jackass. My point is that I have shown a great degree of responsibility most Americans, including those with children have not. I am certainly more successful than most of the people I went to high school with. Doesn't prevent them from becoming parents, does it?

I think my ability to be responsible speaks very well to my ability to be a parent. *shrug* And your opinion, as demonstrated elsewhere, is not relevant.

Well hell yeah you disagree or I wouldn't be hijacking this thread.

For someone who claims knowledge by virtue of age and experience, that's a pretty immature attitude. You shouldn't want to "hijack" a thread. Not if you're such a mature adult.

the moveon.org donation comment was witty.

It wasn't meant to be witty. It was meant to be true. Every time I meet a someone whose political views flabbergast me, I give money to an organization that actually can find the time to put boots on the ground and ads on the air to help spread the opposite views. I don't, not anymore. I used to. My job before Japan? I worked for the DNC.

Trust me it was my pleasure to dispute your crazy plan ^_^

No, it was your pleasure to be ridiculous as you said above. Your opposition without evidence is crazy.

But all in all your debating skills are much better than mine when I was your age.

Thank you, I am sure my philosophy professors will be thrilled to hear your opinion on the matter. Now, as long as a grad school admission committee agrees with you, sounds like I'm golden.

[Nyororin]

clintjm - Allow me to ask.

Have you ever looked into actually adopting a child in Japan?
Let me guess - No. Some of us, however, have. Some of us know foreigners who adopted children in Japan. Some of us know foreigners in Japan with adopted children brought from elsewhere.
You have made it quite clear that you don`t really like Japan, don`t enjoy living there, and have serious issues with the culture and lifestyle. Some people do not. Learn to live with it.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Now this I believe, because in many ways, you strike me as a troll.



Just who are you, what experience do you have, how do you expect me to believe anything you say without warrant and justification? You need evidence.

Ohhh sorry didn't know there was a need for papers and ID check here...
I'm sorry you didn't like my advice in this post or the other one. But you can't call me a troll for posting on the topic you brought up or differences in advice. Its so easy to cry troll when you start feeling challenged.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You called my interest in adoption a "childish dream." That's more than just saying I'm "a bit 'young' in [my] ideas." Actually, I think the me of five years from now will be quite pleased with the me of now, for reasons already explained. I'm quite a bit ahead of the game compared to my peers. I have savings, I have a steady job, I have a retirement account, I have no debts. How many mid-twenty year olds can you name that can say the same? I think I can name maybe two of my friends who fall into this category. The vast majority do not.

No, adoption in itself isn't childish at all, but the idea of a Single Parent to go back to his home , have the agency adopt a child to take back to a foreign country on a single income is. Also its harmful to the adopted child itself due to the fact that he or she is being taking to a foreign land at the same time being adopted to trust this new stranger in their life.. Just is not right.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Jackass. My point is that I have shown a great degree of responsibility most Americans, including those with children have not. I am certainly more successful than most of the people I went to high school with. Doesn't prevent them from becoming parents, does it?


I think my ability to be responsible speaks very well to my ability to be a parent. *shrug* And your opinion, as demonstrated elsewhere, is not relevant.

Well lets not start calling each other "childish" names now. Well I'm glad you can take that grand title or Very Responsible compared to your high school chums. Pat yourself on the back and look down on all those take government handouts... oh wait... that is the politcs you support.

While the default rate is at average of 18% and has grown slightly due to the American Recession I don't believe that qualifies you as showing a "great degree of responsibility". Nothing wrong with being parents at a young age (22 and up) with a good family base.

Perhaps you would make a good partent.... but the situation you created of being a
-*single* parent *adopting* and moving a kid to Japan, which the people are proven to discriminate against adopted let alone single parents. Its is a bit strange. I would welcome anyone else to join the discussion on this. Then again there is no need because the adoption process would never go through for the situation you have setup.
Thus its a fantasy.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

For someone who claims knowledge by virtue of age and experience, that's a pretty immature attitude. You shouldn't want to "hijack" a thread. Not if you're such a mature adult.

What more immature is that you deny the advice you asked for in the first post of this thread.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

It wasn't meant to be witty. It was meant to be true. Every time I meet a someone whose political views flabbergast me, I give money to an organization that actually can find the time to put boots on the ground and ads on the air to help spread the opposite views. I don't, not anymore. I used to. My job before Japan? I worked for the DNC.

You shouldn't be surprised to meet someone whose views go against pissing the USA economy into a socialist anarchy

DNC: When you were 20 or 21... great ... again no big surprise at all. Guess you got all the answers then.

Well you can escape to Japan to avoid the US hard ships for now. I'm so glad you'll consider coming back after public transportation and health care is to you're liking...
(as you said you would only then consider)

geez...

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

No, it was your pleasure to be ridiculous as you said above. Your opposition without evidence is crazy.

I'm not sure what evidence you would like? I'm mean its a given fact that single parent adoption to a 25-30 y/o and then taking that child into a foreign envionment would fail the best interest of the child...

But of course you are free to try... just giving you fair warning it will never fly...
Which I take solace in...

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Thank you, I am sure my philosophy professors will be thrilled to hear your opinion on the matter. Now, as long as a grad school admission committee agrees with you, sounds like I'm golden.

Big surprise... philosophy major... you'll go far with that in politics perhaps... in fact you'll fit right in with the jokers today...
Enjoy the imaginary ivory tower while your young... when it comes time to move on from teaching English to young kids(my guess is what you do) and move on to a career be sure to put this post on your resume.

Also be sure to apply to a Japanese University Grad program because the US is just not to your liking until more reform has come.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

clintjm - Allow me to ask.

Have you ever looked into actually adopting a child in Japan?
Let me guess - No. Some of us, however, have. Some of us know foreigners who adopted children in Japan. Some of us know foreigners in Japan with adopted children brought from elsewhere.
You have made it quite clear that you don`t really like Japan, don`t enjoy living there, and have serious issues with the culture and lifestyle. Some people do not. Learn to live with it.

Yes you may ask..

Yes, but I seriously doubt that those children you speak of meet the items listed in tsuwabuki post... young single parent adopting from the US, then taking that child to a foreign country. If a US adoption agency in any state allowed this, then they would be negligent.

In regards to your cross post reply:
Never said I didn't like Japan... love it in fact...
Don't know where you get this idea about me hating culture and lifestyle... again love it.
Just don't like how society will always treat foreigners ...
I understand you have beer glasses on now being young and in Japan now... , one day you will understand if you continue to live in Japan.


I have accepted this fact and will live it. However for those who paint it to be all peaches and cream, I have a write to voice my opinion and tell those who decide to go to Japan to expect what I have stated in this and the other thread "whats it like?".

I'm not going to give up on the US or run away from the problems that exist there either. Replies such as well if such and such gets better or I don't feel wierd in such and such situation, I might live there again if I choose... make me angry (or MAD if you will).

Well the thread actually is about tsuwabuki adopting from his home country, Us/Texus. Not Japan. Its an unfortunate fact for me and my wife that we will most likely have to adopt to have a child. It is next to impossible to adopt from Japan - for a foreigner... maybe not by law... but the unwritten ones will always make this so.. (this is true even so that my wife is Japanese). We have looked into one in Kyushuu but we were told "on the side" it is unlikely but could start the paperwork because we met the "requirements".

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Ohhh sorry didn't know there was a need for papers and ID check here...
I'm sorry you didn't like my advice in this post or the other one. But you can't call me a troll for posting on the topic you brought up or differences in advice. Its so easy to cry troll when you start feeling challenged.

It is necessary to back up what you say with evidence. Personal experiences are a start, but since I have personal experiences as well, that means you'll need to pair them with other forms of evidence. Articles, statistics, websites, scholarly papers. You make a lot of claims, but you do not back them up.

You yourself said you like to argue for the sake of being ridiculous. If that's because you enjoy seeing the reactions you get, then guess what, you're a troll.

No, adoption in itself isn't childish at all, but the idea of a Single Parent to go back to his home , have the agency adopt a child to take back to a foreign country on a single income is. Also its harmful to the adopted child itself due to the fact that he or she is being taking to a foreign land at the same time being adopted to trust this new stranger in their life.. Just is not right.

I've taken child and adolescent psychology. This is a perfect example of where you make a pretty serious claim, and you need to back it up. Do you have any published work to use as evidence? If you can provide literature where it suggests this will have a permanent, detrimental effect on the child, please provide it. I have yet to see anything that suggests this, nor have I seen it in my personal experiences. Therefore, as above, until you offer me a body of evidence, I am free to reject your assertions as warrantless and unjustified.

Well lets not start calling each other "childish" names now. Well I'm glad you can take that grand title or Very Responsible compared to your high school chums. Pat yourself on the back and look down on all those take government handouts... oh wait... that is the politcs you support.

The "jackass" was meant to match your absurd tone with my own, hence the rolling eyes. You started using the informal tone, I just replied in it.

While the default rate is at average of 18% and has grown slightly due to the American Recession I don't believe that qualifies you as showing a "great degree of responsibility". Nothing wrong with being parents at a young age (22 and up) with a good family base.

You provide numbers without citation. Even if the default rate is 18%, or 20% if it has grown slightly, that is still 1 in 5 Americans. I wasn't talking about default anyway, I was talking about getting paid off. And you haven't shown those are real numbers yet. Evidence without source is just as bad as no evidence at all.

Perhaps you would make a good partent.... but the situation you created of being a
-*single* parent *adopting* and moving a kid to Japan, which the people are proven to discriminate against adopted let alone single parents. Its is a bit strange. I would welcome anyone else to join the discussion on this. Then again there is no need because the adoption process would never go through for the situation you have setup.
Thus its a fantasy.

Make claim, offer no evidence. Make claim, offer no evidence. Seems to be your SOP. You also have said several things I never did. From the guidelines on the State website there does not to be an issue that would match what you describe. I can meet all of the qualifications, as I understand them. If I do not understand them, well, that will be up to a State official to explain that to me. Why? Because that official can back up what he or she will explain with evidence.

What more immature is that you deny the advice you asked for in the first post of this thread.

I didn't ask for advice, I asked for thoughts. I said in the very first line that I felt Nyororin was the possible, and probably the only, exception.

You shouldn't be surprised to meet someone whose views go against pissing the USA economy into a socialist anarchy

I am surprised every time I do so, thinking that eventually, maybe, people who are otherwise quite intelligent may stop thinking that "rugged individualism" can save everyone.

DNC: When you were 20 or 21... great ... again no big surprise at all. Guess you got all the answers then

.

I was 23, and no, not all the answers, but enough to know that people who claim to be conservatives are not really fiscally conservative, and if America is going to spend under a political group, I'd rather it be for reasons I agree with.

Well you can escape to Japan to avoid the US hard ships for now. I'm so glad you'll consider coming back after public transportation and health care is to you're liking...

When it is possible for me to make a living in America, comfortably, I will return. The world is more than just the US, for someone who claims to have traveled extensively, you should know. So if the benefits I receive for my employment in Japan are better than the benefits I would receive in America, it is only economically sensical to move. Aren't you conservatives all for free trade and unrestricted capitalism, a la the invisible hand. In fact, didn't Reaganomics claim the be the return of Adam Smith to his rightful place? You of all people should be applauding my decision based on capitalist principles.

I'm not sure what evidence you would like? I'm mean its a given fact that single parent adoption to a 25-30 y/o and then taking that child into a foreign envionment would fail the best interest of the child...

Another Reagan moment... There you go again. There no "given facts" here, no premises that we have accepted. If you are going to make a claim like that, you must back it up with evidence if it is to be believed. I am quite aware of the idea of the "best interest of the child" and I don't see, looking at any of the guidelines I have looked at, why I should be denied.

Big surprise... philosophy major... you'll go far with that in politics perhaps... in fact you'll fit right in with the jokers today...
Enjoy the imaginary ivory tower while your young... when it comes time to move on from teaching English to young kids(my guess is what you do) and move on to a career be sure to put this post on your resume.

You make assumption after assumption after assumption. I went to school to be an English teacher. Philosophy is just a hobby. Teaching is my career. I've also said that numerous times in other posts. I'm already doing what I want to do in life. Getting an MA will allow me to pursue teaching jobs that double my income. Most require just an MA, no specific one, and thus I am considering philosophy because I enjoy it.

If you were really interested in debate, you would offer unemotional arguments with evidence. You do not. Therefore, I judge that I am feeding a troll.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by clintjm

I have accepted this fact and will live it. However for those who paint it to be all peaches and cream, I have a write to voice my opinion and tell those who decide to go to Japan to expect what I have stated in this and the other thread "whats it like?".

I'm not saying it is peaches and cream. I am saying that people who harp on Japan's problems, and they do exist, do so in a way that is completely unbalanced. These events are rarities versus the entire foreign population, yet they are often presented as happening on a regular basis to everyone. This is false.

Well the thread actually is about tsuwabuki adopting from his home country, Us/Texus. Not Japan.

False. This thread is about adopting from elsewhere, somewhere closer to Japan, and getting permission from State and Texas in order to do so. Then getting Japan to agree to bringing the child in as a dependent. State makes the actual home visit. As far as I can tell, Texas just needs documentation because it is where I claim residency for taxes, voting, etc. I would need to step onto US soil to complete the process, but this can be done in Guam or Hawaii. US adoption agencies need not be used, as previously stated, some countries, such as the ROC, have internal adoption agencies that are authorised by State to work with US citizens.

Have you even bothered to read the websites? They're easy to find and very clear.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Yes you may ask..

Yes, but I seriously doubt that those children you speak of meet the items listed in tsuwabuki post... young single parent adopting from the US, then taking that child to a foreign country. If a US adoption agency in any state allowed this, then they would be negligent.

I don`t recall Tsuwabuki ever saying he was interested in adopting from the US. I answered his inquiry under the assumption that he was not looking into adoption from the US, but rather from the countries he actually listed; PRC and ROC. If he is able to adopt a child, then there should be no issue with bringing the child into Japan as a dependent if it below 6. This is a fact. He also stated that he wasn`t going to go out and do this tomorrow - he says "next few years" in the first post. If it were a futile effort to even consider it, wouldn`t it be best to know this before investing time or money in the endeavor? I don`t believe it is my or your place to judge someone, particularly based on a simple question asked on a forum.

Even though it is clear that Tsuwabuki is not asking about an adoption of a child from the US, I am curious. How, may I ask, would it be negligent to allow someone who lives outside or has plans to live outside the US to adopt a child? You have mentioned discrimination issues, and culture/language issues... but how is that a different situation than bringing a child from outside the US into the US? International adoptions are far from unheard of, and I assure you the stress is the same for the child no matter where they move to. In my opinion, the fact that a child is "adopted" will make no difference in Japan. The fact that they`re not Japanese will totally outweigh this. I highly doubt that adoption itself will ever be an issue if the child is not Japanese.
In the case of a child from another Asian country, I would imagine it would be slightly LESS stressful as the chances of them fitting in with everyone would be raised. The age *limit* is 6, it`s not a set age for adoption. A child adopted at 1 to 3 is unlikely to experience much of a language/culture clash.

In regards to your cross post reply:
Never said I didn't like Japan... love it in fact...
Don't know where you get this idea about me hating culture and lifestyle... again love it.
Just don't like how society will always treat foreigners ...

You seem to make a point of talking about things in a negative way. From what I can see, it looks more like you "tolerate" Japan at best.

I understand you have beer glasses on now being young and in Japan now... , one day you will understand if you continue to live in Japan.

I`m curious where you get the idea that I am some young kid in Japan for a couple years...?

I have accepted this fact and will live it. However for those who paint it to be all peaches and cream, I have a write to voice my opinion and tell those who decide to go to Japan to expect what I have stated in this and the other thread "whats it like?".

The problem isn`t with pointing out that there are negative things in Japan. The problem is with pointing them out as if they`re the ONLY things in Japan. Not everyone is going to leap to discriminate - that is, in my experience, a very VERY small minority. Presenting Japan as a place where there is little other than discrimination and racism is no different than presenting it as a perfect paradise. Both are wrong.

I'm not going to give up on the US or run away from the problems that exist there either. Replies such as well if such and such gets better or I don't feel wierd in such and such situation, I might live there again if I choose... make me angry (or MAD if you will).

I haven`t commented on US issues, so will not reply to this bit.

Well the thread actually is about tsuwabuki adopting from his home country, Us/Texus. Not Japan.

Please re-read the first post. You will see that it isn`t, which is apparently leading to a lot of misunderstanding in this thread.

Its an unfortunate fact for me and my wife that we will most likely have to adopt to have a child. It is next to impossible to adopt from Japan - for a foreigner... maybe not by law... but the unwritten ones will always make this so.. (this is true even so that my wife is Japanese). We have looked into one in Kyushuu but we were told "on the side" it is unlikely but could start the paperwork because we met the "requirements".

That is really unfortunate, but in my experiences if you know where to look and the right path to take - it`s no harder than for a Japanese person. Adoption is hard in Japan. It has nothing to do with your race. Talk to Japanese who have tried to adopt, and you`ll find 10, 20, 30 failed attempts and fear that the guardian will change their mind up until the very day that things are transferred legally. Japan simply does not have an adoption infrastructure. Plan to spend 2 to 5 years working with different facilities and then with guardians to actually get anywhere.