Japanese views on dating

[GiannaR]

thanks steven, i'm more curious about younger generations as i'm younger myself, but I was also curious just in general as well.

[steven]

Originally Posted by Columbine

I was always really confused by this growing up. My Dad had his adenoids removed as a young man and they messed up the operation and now he snores horrendously. Because it's an actual physical abnormality, none of the usual strips and sprays work at all to help it. So my mum has pretty much -always- slept in a separate room. As a small child, I always assumed this was how everyone's family worked, so it confused me when people would get awkward and apologetic whenever I innocently mentioned that "that's mummy's room, and that one's daddy's room." I learnt to gloss over it as I got older, or hastily explain about the snoring, but it's always infuriated me that people make snap judgements over the health of my parent's marriage, because they don't sleep in the same room. Or start getting creepy sympathetic or extra nice to me because -clearly- my parents were cold and on the verge of snapping and splitting up and oh won't someone think of the children~ *eye-roll*

Ironically, the worst culprit for that was someone shared a bed their entire marriage, and then got into a really bitter divorce.

TL;DR: It doesn't mean squat in my book.

That's interesting. To be honest I'd probably have responded sympathetically as I always assumed married couples slept together. I guess there's quite a bit of ignorance on my part. Judging by the people who have contributed to this thread as of late, one could imagine that most people don't sleep together! I don't think that's the case though. I realize now that physical problems tend to lead to sleeping seperately. Despite my dad's loud snoring, my mom managed to sleep in the same bed with him though (with the assistance of ear plugs of course).

I wonder, however, if these kinds of physical issues play a part in the Japanese situation represented by the survey I posted.

And GiannaR, you're welcome. I think you might find some of this info interesting:
Housework styles of Japanese women | 世論 What Japan Thinks

I think it should be noted that this survey is composed of half housewives and half full time jobs. Either way, the content of the survey is quite interesting and might help to answer some of the stuff you were wondering about.

Here's another interesting one:
Japanese wives in the kitchen: part 1 of 2 | 世論 What Japan Thinks
Japanese wives in the kitchen: part 2 of 2 | 世論 What Japan Thinks

This one was particularly interesting to me:
Fathers, food and family life: part 2 of 3 | 世論 What Japan Thinks
Take note of the featured pie-chart. 22% (more than one in five) only spend one night a week sitting down with their family for a meal. Keep in mind these are 30-49 year olds.
Q6 also seems to shed some light on some of the questions you've asked.

[GiannaR]

Thanks, very interesting indeed.

[RealJames]

There's a lotta posts in this thread, so I'll just post my experiences to answer the OP.

I'm a foreigner who's been living in Japan for a few years, target female age has been between 18 and 35. (I'm 26)

My experience is that Japanese women fall into two very distinct categories;
1 - sex is not taboo or a big deal, have it as soon as you please
2 - sex is holy and reserved, maybe after living together a while you can have it

The 2nd group is much smaller, or at least I meet fewer of them.

It should also be mentioned that sex is not seen negatively in this culture as it is in most catholic cultures. Sex isn't seen as evil or something reserved.
Japan has a history of sexuality which is quite impressive actually, and today the sex industry in Japan is thriving and flowering.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by steven

Nyororin, I didn't mean to "assume" that so to speak. I just meant that maybe that could be one of the reasons... I really don't know though. Matched marriages often seem to work out in the long run quite well (which may simply be because they have to), but I've heard a few stories about how they don't quite work out in the affection department.

I think that it is something so deeply ingrained - loving couples sleep together - that anything other than that does result in an unconscious assumption that it carries a meaning of less, or a lack of, affection in the relationship.
You point this out again in making the connection of matched marriage = lack of affection = sleeping apart. Because matched marriages may not work out in the affection department, they are probably sleeping apart... The key isn`t the matched marriage bit, but rather the opinion in regard to affection.

It's also interesting to note the demographic, with the majority being in their 40's. Although I don't really consider 40's to be 'older', it is the 'oldest' in the survey.. and I always attribute older generations to matched mariages, which I'll admit is an assumption on my part.

I do think this is important to note - as 40s are definitely NOT an "older" generation. If you`re married with a child under 10, as I am, 75% of your peers are going to be in their late 30s and early 40s. In my son`s kindergarten class (5 and 6 year olds), about half the mothers are 40+... And most of them have a younger child.
So early 40s tend to be the major years of child rearing. Most everyone around who has children had their first after 35.

Even going on the early end of the common pattern - first child at 35, second at 38... So at 40, a mother is putting to bed a 5 year old and likely sleeping with a 2 year old. Chances are the husband is in the prime of his working years, being the best balance of health and experience he is ever going to be... So getting home fairly late (even getting home at 8pm is late when there is a small child involved - and in big cities, getting off at 定時 means you`ll probably be getting in the door around that time. Off at 6, get ready and leave at 6:30, off the train near home at 7:30, then walk/bicycle the rest of the way home for 10+ minutes). If there is overtime involved, imagine hours later. It`s not rare at all for a mother to sleep with the kids until they head off to elementary school - so dad getting home at midnight and crawling into a bed with sleeping children, risking waking them and the entire household, it`s just easier to start sleeping apart.

These days - particularly in that age group - it seems more that people will be amazed at sleeping together than apart. If you talk about sleeping together still after having children, etc, people tend to remark on how ラブラブ your relationship is.

I realize now that physical problems tend to lead to sleeping seperately. Despite my dad's loud snoring, my mom managed to sleep in the same bed with him though (with the assistance of ear plugs of course).

What if there had been no stigma attached to sleeping apart? What if it was considered absolutely normal for them to sleep in separate rooms with absolutely no effect on what people thought of the marriage? I think this is important to consider. If you believe that sleeping apart is the first step in a marriage falling apart, or that it is a sign of unhappiness / problems... You`re FAR more likely to just deal with discomfort or other issues. Even if sleeping apart would give both a better night`s sleep and a better life thanks to it. I`ve even heard remarks in the US along the lines of "I get better rest sleeping apart... Is there something wrong with me? Does this mean that there is something wrong with our marriage?"

[Nyororin]

Split into two posts as they`re on different subjects, and too long to put together...

Originally Posted by steven

From what I've seen, most guys don't really do that house kind of stuff. Some younger guys do, but I've never really seen older guys take care of that kind of thing. While I'm sure there are many exceptions to this rule, that is generally how I've seen it. I do want to put emphasis on the fact that younger couples seem to be more balanced (in the western point of view) in my opinion.

I think that there is a lot more going on behind closed doors than is out in the open in this area.

For the 40+ set, there seems to have been a lot of pressure from parents (now in their 70s or 80s) telling them that men should not be doing anything other than earning a paycheck, and that women should be doing the household stuff. The older you get, the stronger this is. This is the way they were raised. So there is a bit of peer pressure, as everyone around assumes this is what everyone else is doing. In cases where things are split pretty fairly, husbands don`t want to out themselves as doing a fair share of housework as that might make them look odd, or the wife look bad (as if she isn`t doing her work). The wife also usually doesn`t want to "brag", as a husband who does things around the house tends to be a sort of "dream" for parts of that age set... Or make herself look bad, as she would be thought of as being lazy and not doing her wifely job by the other segment. So unless there is some specific reason for the subject to be discussed, most people just go along with saying that their household is the same as all the others.

I think something else that cannot be forgotten is that it is NOT just men who feel they don`t need to do anything around the house. Women often have the stronger influence in this. I have seen women (50s) berate their husbands for simply being at home, as a man`s place is NOT in the house. And don`t even think about stepping into the kitchen, that is the WIFE`s territory. I think that there are countless men who would be more than happy to help out if they were asked. But it is pretty much normal for them to be basically told to get out of the house because they`re in the way.

The 30~40 something set who are married has less of the peer pressure, and different work ideals. A man who can cook and who is skilled around the house is looked on as an asset by both sides - not as lazy or annoying as is common with the older set.

What I've heard is that this has to do with tax issues. In otherwords, taxes become more leniant for part-time working mothers.

That ends this year. It was an income cutoff allowing a dependent (children has nothing to do with it) to earn up to a certain amount (1.3 million yen) but still be covered under the main earner`s insurance, pension, etc, and have only minimal taxes to pay. The main earner gets a normal tax break for having dependents ie. spouse and children.

If the dependent goes over the 1.3 million mark, the main earner loses them as an adult dependent so no longer gets the tax breaks for that person - and full taxes plus insurance and pension have to be paid.

With everything added up, either earn less than 1.3, or more than 1.8. Anything between those 1.3 and 1.8, and you lose money in the end as the loss tax breaks, normal taxes, and benefit payments end up somewhere around 40,000 to 50,000 a month.

Apparently though, this is going to change... I am not entirely sure on how, but I believe that there will no longer be any tax breaks for the main earner if the dependent is earning at all, and the level of taxes paid by the dependent earner will change. I think the goal is that there is no single jump to make a wall of sorts. I believe they`re still debating the finer points of the change.

I've noticed that a well paying salary job can cover a family. I'm sure the cost of living is cheaper where I am, but that's how I've seen it.

It DOES have to do with where you live.
A single salary can easily cover a family living in the countryside. Hoikuen is practically free, and has tons of open spots so there is little worry about paying for children`s education until they go into high school. Food costs tend to be lower as there is easier access to food sold directly from the producers, and you also get access to the "cast off" bits that tend to be sold locally at low prices.
And the biggest factor - housing. There is more space, larger living spaces, so the cost of housing is MUCH lower.

And that is assuming a lack of family support. There is also a pretty good chance that you can live with family, in the family home. Or at least receive food, childcare, and general support from local family.

Once long long ago, when my husband was close to graduation and looking for a company - we calculated how much we would need to live comfortably in the city, in the countryside, and near / with his family. Pay varies by area, so this was to be able to compare them at the same standard.

Living in the city, in a standard apartment, we would have needed a base of somewhere around 180,000/month.
Living in the countryside in a similar living arrangement, 120,000/month.
Living with family - less than 80,000/month.
(all after taxes)

Even now, at a much higher living standard than we had then, the gap is huge. In the countryside, we could buy a large, new house with lots of land attached for a bit more than half what we paid for our condo here. Schooling is about half. Food costs are different enough that it is sometimes worth it to have things sent instead of buying locally.

I think that there have been some cuts though... from what I've heard people used to get more money based on whether they had kids or not and those kinds of general circumstances. I guess that hasn't been happening as readily lately.

In companies, yes. There is less of a tendency to give bonus payments for births and the like. But this is largely because the company pays into taxes that are tossed around and end up going to the employee through tax breaks, reduced benefit costs, and the government child payments... Things that didn`t exist, or didn`t exist at the same level in the past.

I bet Nyororin has a lot to say about these things actually. I'm looking forward to seeing what she has to say about this. I was wondering if the tax thing applies to all of Japan or if it's just a more local thing. Do you know the specifics about that?

As it is national taxes, there is no difference. Some areas have slightly different cutoffs for local taxes, but the amount is usually insignificant.

[steven]

That was a super informative post. Thanks for all of that info! Looks like I've gotta do a lot more research on some of this stuff as it seems to be in a changing stage.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by steven

That's interesting. To be honest I'd probably have responded sympathetically as I always assumed married couples slept together. Judging by the people who have contributed to this thread as of late, one could imagine that most people don't sleep together! I don't think that's the case though. I realize now that physical problems tend to lead to sleeping seperately. ).

*laughs* Actually, I'd be willing to bet there's a good number of couples who sleep separately, but who just don't admit it because they know how people would react.

[steven]

Check this out:
do you sleep in the same bed - Google Search

There's a lot of people answering this very question on a lot of those ~answer websites. I'm sure there's a good number who do sleep separated, but I'd bet that the majority of couples sleep together. I realize the google results there might not be the best quality results you can get, but I think they show a somewhat decent example-- and keep in mind to find those questions to answer the searcher would first have to be concerned about that situation (at least i'd suspect most of them would be)... so I'd say there'd be an advantage on the people who DON'T sleep together on those answer sites.

At any rate, do you think that Japanese don't sleep in the same beds as often as "westerners"? Do you think the survey could be flawed and that a lot of these cases are people who just have two futons purshed together? (think of like two twin beds pushed together to make one bigger bed, that's kind of how I picture it but with futons).

I think if more Japanese do sleep separately then it might be related to the work culture more so than lack of affection.

[GiannaR]

Wow Nyororin, thanks so much for that info!