Interracial Relationships

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

It`s not. I`ve lived in Japan more than 10 years, am a member of multiple communities for international couples, and have talked to countless people. We`re the exception, I suppose, as it was only friends who quietly hinted to my husband to ditch the idea... And not all the relatives and co-workers.

We haven`t maintained contact with most of them after graduation - some of them quietly cut off the friendship because my husband was choosing to ruin his life and not take their advice. We met a few of them a couple years back, and I assure you they were completely shocked that we were still married - and happily at that.

It isn`t as if they were shouting it on the rooftops. No matter how soft spoken someone is, if they feel a friend is making a seriously detrimental decision - they will quietly tell that friend what they think.

You know... I really strongly get the feeling that you`re surrounded by the type who love foreigners (superficially) and the type of foreigner who loves Japanese because they`re Japanese.

lol I also get the feeling that I've been seeing things from one side.
I do have a lot of close friends though, who certainly don't stick around for superficial reasons. I actually try to avoid people who seem interested in hanging around me just because I'm a foreigner, except my students of course...
I was raised in parts of Canada and the Caribbean where most of my friends were not white, I see people for who they really are subconsciously, at least regardless of skin colour or language. I don't love my japanese friends because they are japanese, it's kind of insulting that you'd hint at that, but I understand there are many who are that way and it's not like you know me that well so no offense taken

The married couples I know may have chosen not to talk to me about that aspect of their past, like you said you don't keep in touch with those that behaved that way, I assume neither would they, so post-wedding I think it wouldn't be as much of an issue, kind of like "well it's done, not much you can do now" lol

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

I can imagine everything you described though, and envision it's quite true, but what of after school?
The life of a celebrity always sucks, mixed or not.
Getting stereotyped is a fact most of the world deals with except those who live in a place where they are the visible majority, and even then must have no defining traits lol (freckles, red hair, too tall, w/e)
Life does favour the aesthetically pleasing, and mixed people tend to fall in that category more than others.
Life would suck for the ugly mixed person though ><

I am not talking about stereotyping with non-celebs, and I am sure Bekii has a fine life, I am talking about discrimination and hazing.

You two keep talking about how beautiful mixed race children are. Beautiful mixed race children get a lot of attention (READ: Hazing in school) but there are plenty of traditionally unattractive children of interracial marriages. I think you are thinking Crystal K and Ana, but these genetic couplings are the minority. The majority are Chinese-Japanese, Korean-Japanese, etc. Oftentimes children of these relationships try and keep that fact a secret, though it will come out at marriage time.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am not talking about stereotyping with non-celebs, and I am sure Bekii has a fine life, I am talking about discrimination and hazing.

You two keep talking about how beautiful mixed race children are. Beautiful mixed race children get a lot of attention (READ: Hazing in school) but there are plenty of traditionally unattractive children of interracial marriages. I think you are thinking Crystal K and Ana, but these genetic couplings are the minority. The majority are Chinese-Japanese, Korean-Japanese, etc. Oftentimes children of these relationships try and keep that fact a secret, though it will come out at marriage time.

Yeah, like I mentioned, mixed kids with a parent coming from other parts of asia would not be seen well but that's because Japanese people simply don't like people from other parts of asia, mixed or not.
How about a kid from a non-asian, well perceived, ethnicity?


PS: loving this thread!

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by RealJames

l I don't love my japanese friends because they are japanese, it's kind of insulting that you'd hint at that, but I understand there are many who are that way and it's not like you know me that well so no offense taken

I`m not necessarily referring to you, but rather to those around you. To those who you are exposed to. There are tons of foreigners out there dating Japanese because, well, they can. The type of Japanese they date tend to be the type who date foreigners because they think it`s cool. It`s a subculture on it`s own, and I think that is what you are seeing. That is what is coloring your image of things. Well, that, some level of honeymoon thinking, and positive racism on your part toward Japanese people.

Japanese people have just as strong of opinions as anyone else. That they don`t and are all nice and kind people at heart is a huge stereotype. Likely it`s what you`ve experienced though as the wall that comes with superficial friendships will make all that invisible.

You just haven`t seen the other side of the wall.

It`s kind of like going to a performance and thinking that all the actors are really like that ... But there is another world behind the stage. The backstage world isn`t bad, but it`s much much different than what is put on the stage for the public world to see...

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I`m not necessarily referring to you, but rather to those around you. To those who you are exposed to. There are tons of foreigners out there dating Japanese because, well, they can. The type of Japanese they date tend to be the type who date foreigners because they think it`s cool. It`s a subculture on it`s own, and I think that is what you are seeing. That is what is coloring your image of things. Well, that, some level of honeymoon thinking, and positive racism on your part toward Japanese people.

Japanese people have just as strong of opinions as anyone else. That they don`t and are all nice and kind people at heart is a huge stereotype. Likely it`s what you`ve experienced though as the wall that comes with superficial friendships will make all that invisible.

You just haven`t seen the other side of the wall.

It`s kind of like going to a performance and thinking that all the actors are really like that ... But there is another world behind the stage. The backstage world isn`t bad, but it`s much much different than what is put on the stage for the public world to see...

I would find it very hard to imagine that anyone who has lived in Japan for more than even 6 months wouldn't have seen the other side of the "wall" you mention.

Perhaps in my trying to point out that Japan is as good a place to live for foreigners as any, I have left out the bad experiences I've had here, and the acidic parts of the culture that I rather not relate to, but I'm very well aware of them though. I've lived in 5 countries and visited many more and have experienced the same "dark side" in all cultures, that's simply humanity, and I think it's important to remove that from one's judgment of Japan. If anything, that people culturally try to avoid showing that dark side to the rest of the world is a lot more than most cultures can say for themselves.

edit:
I could just as easily say that you've spent most of the last 10 years surrounded by the difficulties in this society and haven't had a chance to properly enjoy it's wonderful attributes, or perhaps you miss home and are finding all the things different which you miss from home. Honestly I have no idea, I'd rather not stipulate because I'm not even sure if it's you or your husband that's the Japanese one lol, I assume him, yeah?

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by RealJames

I would find it very hard to imagine that anyone who has lived in Japan for more than even 6 months wouldn't have see the other side of the wall you mention.

I`m not talking about the "dark side" - I`m talking about the world behind the curtain, not the alley behind the theatre.
Anyone can walk around and see the alley, but there is a level of intimacy and familiarity required to actually go backstage.

I`m not talking about negative things, about racism, etc. Those are the dark side of things and not all that hard to peek around and see. But there is another different world when intimacy is involved.
I don`t believe you`ve made it there yet, but when/if you do you`ll know what I am talking about. I have no doubts MMM does, and there are countless mentions of it on the net.

I am heading out to eat so can`t continue at the moment, but there really are huge differences in what people will talk about, and their levels of honesty depending on intimacy and where you`re judged to be when it comes to that wall.

I could just as easily say that you've spent most of the last 10 years surrounded by the difficulties in this society and haven't had a chance to properly enjoy it's wonderful attributes, or perhaps you miss home and are finding all the things different which you miss from home.

You might want to read my other posts. I got a nice laugh from this one.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

Yeah, like I mentioned, mixed kids with a parent coming from other parts of asia would not be seen well but that's because Japanese people simply don't like people from other parts of asia, mixed or not.
How about a kid from a non-asian, well perceived, ethnicity?


PS: loving this thread!

I just had to remind that you are talking mixed as "mixed with Western" when that is minority, for sure.

But then we get to that reverse racism again. "White and Japanese mixed kids are beautiful." "Black kids are good at sports." "Asian kids excel at math."

How many times have I heard "Even though she's half, it's a shame she isn't that cute." More than once, I assure you.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by MMM

I just had to remind that you are talking mixed as "mixed with Western" when that is minority, for sure.

But then we get to that reverse racism again. "White and Japanese mixed kids are beautiful." "Black kids are good at sports." "Asian kids excel at math."

How many times have I heard "Even though she's half, it's a shame she isn't that cute." More than once, I assure you.

That's right, and I've heard that kind of thing often too. Though I wonder if it would be so much to cause a family member from having opposing a wedding with a foreigner. Maybe, if it's not too personal, Nyororin can expand a bit on what the grounds were for the complaints towards her husband when he was her fiance. That might shed more light on what it is that Japanese people oppose to in an international (with a westerner) marriage.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I`m not talking about the "dark side" - I`m talking about the world behind the curtain, not the alley behind the theatre.
Anyone can walk around and see the alley, but there is a level of intimacy and familiarity required to actually go backstage.

I`m not talking about negative things, about racism, etc. Those are the dark side of things and not all that hard to peek around and see. But there is another different world when intimacy is involved.
I don`t believe you`ve made it there yet, but when/if you do you`ll know what I am talking about. I have no doubts MMM does, and there are countless mentions of it on the net.

I am heading out to eat so can`t continue at the moment, but there really are huge differences in what people will talk about, and their levels of honesty depending on intimacy and where you`re judged to be when it comes to that wall.

You might want to read my other posts. I got a nice laugh from this one.

I'll check out your other posts for sure, I'm curious about your experiences now.
I'm still not convinced that I haven't experienced this "backstage" though.
I admit it's not what I thought you were talking about the first time, but I think I actually experienced some of it before I cane to Japan with one of my close friends and his family during high school (his parents were 1st generation Japanese-Canadians with very little English ability).

Anyways, I could tell a few stories to portray how I've delved behind the cloak of lies and illusions weaved by the average Japanese person, but I hope my word is enough to convey I'm well aware of it. Those stories are not the kind of thing I like remembering.

At times that performance is nice though, I rely on it to get by without having to give a crap what some random person thinks of me, the formality, and even the dishonest "honest" opinion help me identify what someone really is like. It takes a bit of cunning, or an unfortunate situation, to really break down what someones opinion is of you.

But regardless of that, I still honestly think there are tonnes of Japanese people who from the bottom of their heart have nothing but support and respect for those among their peers who are in an intercultural relationship.
And I do mean aside from those who themselves are willing to try it out. Or outside that subculture you mentioned.

Honestly I don't know how big that subculture really is, the one that likes western foreigners, and how much those outside of it really dislike western foreigners secretly.
It seems to me that the ladder isn't all that big, nor is it that passionate about it's animosity.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

That's right, and I've heard that kind of thing often too. Though I wonder if it would be so much to cause a family member from having opposing a wedding with a foreigner. Maybe, if it's not too personal, Nyororin can expand a bit on what the grounds were for the complaints towards her husband when he was her fiance. That might shed more light on what it is that Japanese people oppose to in an international (with a westerner) marriage.

It might not be what you think. It can be a lot of things. "A foreigner is eventually going to want to move home." "Life is better in America, so they are going to uproot and take the grandchildren with them." "My grandchildren won't be able to speak Japanese." "Foreigners run home when the going gets rough." "Our grandchildren are going to get hazed in school." "How am I going to communicate with his parents?" "My friends will feel sorry for me for having foreign in-laws." "Am I going to have to fly to a foreign country for the wedding?"

It isn't always negatives, but just questions marks that are concretes in a Japanese-Japanese relationship.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by MMM

It might not be what you think. It can be a lot of things. "A foreigner is eventually going to want to move home." "Life is better in America, so they are going to uproot and take the grandchildren with them." "My grandchildren won't be able to speak Japanese." "Foreigners run home when the going gets rough." "Our grandchildren are going to get hazed in school." "How am I going to communicate with his parents?" "My friends will feel sorry for me for having foreign in-laws." "Am I going to have to fly to a foreign country for the wedding?"

It isn't always negatives, but just questions marks that are concretes in a Japanese-Japanese relationship.

You bring up some things I hadn't considered before, it's true there are a lot of unknowns. Would asking these questions constitute opposing the idea? I imagine that someone would have to assume negative answers to their own questions, and enough of them, to actually raise it as a problem towards their friend or family member.
I imagine a lot of those questions really should be answered in person with the parents and family, some of them are very valid questions which would really be a good reason to oppose the marriage depending on how they are answered...